Auckland Weather 27/01/23 and Cyclone Gabrielle

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#3038609 18-Feb-2023 15:48

quickymart:
Is this really the case? Life goes on as normal in Hastings, while Napier is totally devastated? I just find that odd - the two places are only 20 kms apart, and it's not like there's a mountain range separating them.

How did Napier get so hammered while Hastings appears to have escaped (relatively) unscathed?

As someone deployed here as part of the response, I can absolutely confirm that is the case.

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Gurezaemon

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#3038611 18-Feb-2023 16:02

gzt:
tdgeek: Attending to climate change means doing what was needed to reduce emissions, a LOT earlier. Too late now

I do not wish to turn this topic into a climate change discussion at this point but I will respond to this one.

It is not too late.

New Zealand has benefited from industrialization and alliances with first world economies. We have enormous wealth and technical capability as a result of all that.

James Shaw, co-leader of the Green Party nailed it:

“I don’t think I’ve ever felt as sad or as angry about the lost decades that we spent bickering and arguing about whether climate change was real or not, whether it was caused by humans or not, whether it was bad or not, whether we should do something about it or not, because it is clearly here now, and if we do not act, it will get worse,” he said.

Evoking the American gun lobby, Shaw said that there will be people who say now is “too soon” to talk about these things. “But we are standing in it, this is a climate change-related event. We need to stop making excuses for inaction, we cannot put our heads in the sand while the beach is flooding”

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quickymart

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#3038668 18-Feb-2023 17:24

Ge0rge:
quickymart:

Is this really the case? Life goes on as normal in Hastings, while Napier is totally devastated? I just find that odd - the two places are only 20 kms apart, and it's not like there's a mountain range separating them.

How did Napier get so hammered while Hastings appears to have escaped (relatively) unscathed?

As someone deployed here as part of the response, I can absolutely confirm that is the case.

Thanks for that and I don't doubt you but it just seems unusual to me - how did it end up like that? Like I said it's not like there's a mountain range between two, sheltering Hastings from the heavy rainfall.

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#3038723 18-Feb-2023 17:30

quickymart:

Thanks for that and I don't doubt you but it just seems unusual to me - how did it end up like that? Like I said it's not like there's a mountain range between two, sheltering Hastings from the heavy rainfall.

Friday we had a MASSIVE downpour in central CBD Auckland, Newmarket, and Parnell. Greenlane didn't get a drop, Mt Roskill didn't get a drop.

Probably doesn't seem *that* hard to understand?

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#3038732 18-Feb-2023 17:47

@quickymart

When you look at the HBRC maps;

Almost all of Napier is at high risk of liquefaction, while Hastings is only medium risk.

Napier is sitting on unconsolidated swamp, estuarine and lagoonal deposits and reclaimed land, while Hastings is on alluvial sand, silt, and gravel.

Napier has significantly larger percentage of flood risk areas, than Hastings.

There is a detention dam flood zone over Taradale and Greenmeadows, Napier

The Tsunami inundation map gives you an idea of how flat Napier is compared to Hastings. Add to that the tides preventing water from leaving, pump stations failing etc.

If you've ever been around the bay you'll get an idea of how different the two cities are, including the weather.

tdgeek

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#3038745 18-Feb-2023 19:15

gzt:
tdgeek: Attending to climate change means doing what was needed to reduce emissions, a LOT earlier. Too late now

I do not wish to turn this topic into a climate change discussion at this point but I will respond to this one.

It is not too late.

New Zealand has benefited from industrialization and alliances with first world economies. We have enormous wealth and technical capability as a result of all that.

I agree, but I dont but I will be a politician (roll out said election speech...)

Many many countries including ourselves have gravitated to ciimate change avoidance. China, our worst enemy but biggest trading partner has created a 100% green city. But thats no more than an example of what could be done, the globe doesnt do that. I watched a doco a few years back, if we ceased emission right now, it will take the Earth 50 years to stabilise. Its too late. Credit to all those that want change, but its too late.

There are now 2 issues.

1. Stop climate change, thats long term.

2. Until then, mitigate it. I.e. this WILL happen again and over and over so until we manage climate change we will need to deal with rain, floods, etc etc and etc.

Those of us who recall 9/11, I was putting my socks on, CNN on TV and there it is, ouch. 2 weeks later IIRC Pakistan was hammered by off season rains, 250,000 died, but you never heard about that, as 9/11 was the centre point of news. Since then India has had monsoon issues (cannot recall if they came early or late) but its the same deal.

It's too late. Yes, lets bring EV's in, solar farms, and so on, but the deal NOW is mitigation. In the case of HB, lots of dollars. Next year somewhere else, lots of dollars. The endless National and Labour arguments will be over ruled by climate change costs.

Yes, this is not the climate change thread but it very very much, overlaps.

tdgeek

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#3038746 18-Feb-2023 19:16

Gurezaemon:

James Shaw, co-leader of the Green Party nailed it:

“I don’t think I’ve ever felt as sad or as angry about the lost decades that we spent bickering and arguing about whether climate change was real or not, whether it was caused by humans or not, whether it was bad or not, whether we should do something about it or not, because it is clearly here now, and if we do not act, it will get worse,” he said.

Evoking the American gun lobby, Shaw said that there will be people who say now is “too soon” to talk about these things. “But we are standing in it, this is a climate change-related event. We need to stop making excuses for inaction, we cannot put our heads in the sand while the beach is flooding”

1000% Nuff said.

tdgeek

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#3038747 18-Feb-2023 19:22

rscole86: @quickymart

When you look at the HBRC maps;

Almost all of Napier is at high risk of liquefaction, while Hastings is only medium risk.

Napier is sitting on unconsolidated swamp, estuarine and lagoonal deposits and reclaimed land, while Hastings is on alluvial sand, silt, and gravel.

Napier has significantly larger percentage of flood risk areas, than Hastings.

There is a detention dam flood zone over Taradale and Greenmeadows, Napier

The Tsunami inundation map gives you an idea of how flat Napier is compared to Hastings. Add to that the tides preventing water from leaving, pump stations failing etc.

If you've ever been around the bay you'll get an idea of how different the two cities are, including the weather.

Without derailing your valued comment, all of NZ has "some" issues.

Northland, our most tropical area, Auckland, our key city of sails and sales, NI, our growing bowl, and that goes down to the deep south for various financial and economic and agricultural reasons. But we are all at risk from various geologic or weather issues. But we want to adapt, but we dont want to as NIMBY

rscole86

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#3038748 18-Feb-2023 19:36

tdgeek:
rscole86: @quickymart

When you look at the HBRC maps;

Without derailing your valued comment, all of NZ has "some" issues.

Northland, our most tropical area, Auckland, our key city of sails and sales, NI, our growing bowl, and that goes down to the deep south for various financial and economic and agricultural reasons. But we are all at risk from various geologic or weather issues. But we want to adapt, but we dont want to as NIMBY

You've not derailed, but I was missing (large replies on mobile is a pain) the context of my response to quickymart, which was highlighting the possible explanation of why Napier faired worse than Hastings.

tdgeek

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#3038751 18-Feb-2023 19:42

rscole86:

You've not derailed, but I was missing (large replies on mobile is a pain) the context of my response to quickymart, which was highlighting the possible explanation of why Napier faired worse than Hastings.

Yes, I fully got that, as I hope QM did.

johno1234

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#3038817 18-Feb-2023 21:04

networkn:
quickymart:

Thanks for that and I don't doubt you but it just seems unusual to me - how did it end up like that? Like I said it's not like there's a mountain range between two, sheltering Hastings from the heavy rainfall.

Friday we had a MASSIVE downpour in central CBD Auckland, Newmarket, and Parnell. Greenlane didn't get a drop, Mt Roskill didn't get a drop.

Probably doesn't seem *that* hard to understand?

But Friday's Auckland rain was not damaging because it was short so the total precipitation was lower.

The issue with Napier is that it is badly located between the catchment and the sea.

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#3038830 18-Feb-2023 21:37

Thanks, that explains it. I have been to Hawke's Bay and know that the area between Napier-Hastings is mostly flat, which is what I was getting at. Plus, this rain was heavy and sustained for a very long time; totally different to a 10-minute downpour. Anyway, all good, I understand a bit better now 🙂

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#3038832 18-Feb-2023 21:47

@quickymart:

Typing this on mobile and putting all my thoughts out there, so probably a bit of a mess!
I live in napier, and from what I’ve seen you’ve got hastings, napier, the area between napier and hastings (which comprises of two rivers), plus the Esk valley.

Hastings very little damage, napier - whilst it flooded the streets near my house in te awa not much water has affected houses.

The main devastation has occurred between hastings and napier. Where basically the two rivers have burst the banks to form one river between taradale and the sea. The tutaekuri river also burst its bank On the napier side west of taradale, which flooded the Redclyffe power station. This is what cut power to the whole region.

Hastings is back to normal because the river did not really burst on their side and cause damage to homes, and now have power fed from a smaller substation in fernhill. This was brought on quickly. However napiers power by the sounds of it could not be easily rerouted from Redclyffe.

The flooding in urban napier is not an issue anymore, as above most of the silty areas are between the two cities and then north of napier in the Esk valley.

If you look up a map, you will see the two rivers meet the ocean at about the same spot south of napier. If you then follow the rivers back to omahu and Puketapu, pretty much from what I’ve been able to see that whole area was flooded to make effectively one river at some time. Taking everything in its path. There was then the major breach on the tutaekuri on the napier side which flooded Redclyffe and eit plus some surrounding streets up to maccas on Gloucester. There was a breach on the hastings side of the ngaruroro after fernhill flooding the twyford area up to the expressway, but not passed as the sports park was an evac centre.
Further to the coast there was a breach Of the tutaekuri at the rail bridge. Forestry slash was stuck against it and forced water towards napier. This along with another potential breach by Brookfields has flooded awatoto - people evacuated by helicopter in this area. So the water was all the way down to the awatoto public golf course, you will see there is the maraenui golf club next door. There is a stop bank along between them. The water then breached where they take the mower between the two courses.

This made a river down the 18th at maraenui towards the stormwater drain and pump which activates with heavy rain in Napier to pump out to sea. So this overwhelmed the pumps, however the cross country drain did not breach, but the water coming through the golf course was so much it flooded te awa Ave too down to hunter drive. Hunter drive and the rest of the new subdivision there flooded along with a reservoir pond but mostly did not go into homes. Te awa Ave was dry after hunter drive. Some streets in maraenui got flooded as the cross country drain got so full and started going back there. I don’t think it got in many houses though.

Then Esk valley that was just the sheer volume of water coming down the river. It’s like two main areas of devastation esk valley, and the area between the two rivers/cities.

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#3038850 18-Feb-2023 23:06

Thanks, that's really very helpful and informative.

I haven't been to Hawke's Bay for many years so was going off my very limited geography of the area, so cheers for the clarification.

I guess something like a floodwall (like they have in Greymouth) wouldn't have made any difference or helped in Napier either, by the sounds of things.

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#3038858 18-Feb-2023 23:38

Another bit of a knot that will likely come up pretty soon if it hasn't already will be the huge increase in premiums for homeowners in affected areas for their flood cover. Some parts of Queensland due to annual "one in 100 year" flood events are now all but uninsurable, and to be blunt the business end of climate change is insurance. Hopefully there wasn't too many people without flood cover at all like what happened in Brisbane 2011.

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