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  # 266805 26-Oct-2009 09:58
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 interesting comment.rather insulated i must say

i will say this..im not a gang member, never have been..however..do you realy think the gangs are riding harleys under the cops noses?..no, not really..its an attitude that is developing amongst the cops that anyone on a harley is an easy target..hard not to spot them

in the past i have assisted cops in difficult situations and indeed i have 5 mates who are cops..so i dont need people telling me they just doing their job..i appreciate what they do

however.you must admit...7 times in 5 weeks goes beyond the call of duty?

i will ad something else to the mix..most of the boys i know who ride harleys and are consistantly pulled over..ARE NOT european..

so perhaps now you might understand a little bit more where im coming from
i have a friend who is special air service who rides also..he gets pulled over (cops hate it as nothing comes up on thier enquiry as its restricted)..his C.O also rides..doesnot get pulled over


so  t will be interesting to see what comes back from the ministry when i write the MPs and comissioner as well as police ombudsman

again..in any mans language being pulled over every 3-4 days is beyond a joke




1. Having spent 9 years in the police I think I know what I'm talking about. Gang members do ride Harleys, and do transport drugs. Your 5 mates would be able to tell you the same thing. I appreciate many Harley riders like yourself are genuine and decent people, but as always, it's the minority who ruin everything for everyone. If this weren't true, pulling over Harleys would yield the same result as pulling over 80 year old grandmothers in their 1971 Morris Minor.


2. So this is now going to become a race issue is it?


3. Nothing will come back from the Minister or the Commissioner. Your complaint will be acknowledged but that's about it. It is not excessive, it is not harrassment, they are doing their job.


4. You wanted constructive comments on how to deal with the issue instead of a lecture, well I did give you some advice. I said it's pointless because no one has done anything wrong.


5. What do you really expect to get out of this? A nationwide directive issued to not pull you over? An alert placed on the system saying to never pull you over? Permission to be sought from yourself or someone high up the ranks before they can activate the lights to pull you over? A letter apologising for the harrassment? Instructions that you can only be pulled over in certain situations, times of the day, etc?

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  # 266806 26-Oct-2009 09:58
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So what exactly are you saying? Do you think the cops look up your details before they pull you over? If not, how do they know you've been pulled up so often? They probably don't. Or are you complaining about their racial profiling? Maybe you don't like the fact you're being stereotyped? Join the club, man. That's our society...

Maybe you're just going through a bad patch, wrong place, wrong time kinda thing. Considering you've only been pulled over 3 times in the last 30 years, perhaps it's the law of averages trying to sort things out...

 
 
 
 


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  # 266809 26-Oct-2009 10:07
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While I realise it is annoying to get pulled over on a regular basis unfortunately it is simply a sign that the police are doing there job.

Targeting gang members is one aspect in the fight against the illegal drug trade, especially meth etc. A lot of gang members are riding either without a motorbike licence at all or on restricted licences that prevent them from riding bikes above 250cc. Stopping them as often as possible is one way to get their demerit points up to 100 to have there licences suspended.

I appreciate that you are not a gang member but it would be very hard to tell from a quick glance, given that you are riding one of the main forms of transport of omcg members and dressed in black with a patch on your back.

It is a fine balance between living in a free society and empowering government agencies to protect that freedom by enforcing the laws of the land. I think the balance is about right and in most democracies I think this is achieved over time.

I know another group that get stopped a lot are nightshift workers as has been mentioned above, especially if they are on their way home in the early hours of the morning. Police are not picking on them, they are just targeting drink driving which happens to peak around this time.

I think this is one thing you have to accept and I think you need to look at where this type of dress code originated from in the first place. Dressing in leathers and wearing a patch came out of the 50's and the original 1% movement which led to the Hell's Angels and so forth being formed. Leathers are a great form of protection for bike riders I know but today there are a lot of modern alternatives which provide excellent if not better protection than leather.

I'm not telling you to change your gear but all I'm saying is being stopped for even 5 mintes a week by police on average is a small price to pay for the overll good that targeting gang memebrs does and if you stop, remove your helmet, give a smile and hand over your licence it will all be over in a flash and you will be on your way.

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  # 266830 26-Oct-2009 11:23
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There is no law that restricts the amount of times a person can be pulled over, under New Zealand law any person operating a motor vehicle on Public land or roads can be stopped at any time. As long as you've been obeying the road rules, have a current wof/rego and have your licence on you than five minutes is all it will take before you are on your way. As mentioned, if it were the same police officer you may have recourse, however as it is a different officer each time your argument about harassment is limited. 


Police do not always run plates before they enact a stop, and anyway the information they recieve when they run plates usually does not contain any information about how many times that vehicle has been stopped and when (unless there is a flag on it).


Corksta is on to it, there will be no outcome as there has been no fault on the part of the Police. New Zealand has one of the least corrupt Police Forces in the world, reflected by our placing of second in the World Corruption Perception Index, whether realty reflects this is your own opinion.



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  # 266876 26-Oct-2009 14:33
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corksta:
 interesting comment.rather insulated i must say

i will say this..im not a gang member, never have been..however..do you realy think the gangs are riding harleys under the cops noses?..no, not really..its an attitude that is developing amongst the cops that anyone on a harley is an easy target..hard not to spot them

in the past i have assisted cops in difficult situations and indeed i have 5 mates who are cops..so i dont need people telling me they just doing their job..i appreciate what they do

however.you must admit...7 times in 5 weeks goes beyond the call of duty?

i will ad something else to the mix..most of the boys i know who ride harleys and are consistantly pulled over..ARE NOT european..

so perhaps now you might understand a little bit more where im coming from
i have a friend who is special air service who rides also..he gets pulled over (cops hate it as nothing comes up on thier enquiry as its restricted)..his C.O also rides..doesnot get pulled over


so  t will be interesting to see what comes back from the ministry when i write the MPs and comissioner as well as police ombudsman

again..in any mans language being pulled over every 3-4 days is beyond a joke




1. Having spent 9 years in the police I think I know what I'm talking about. Gang members do ride Harleys, and do transport drugs. Your 5 mates would be able to tell you the same thing. I appreciate many Harley riders like yourself are genuine and decent people, but as always, it's the minority who ruin everything for everyone. If this weren't true, pulling over Harleys would yield the same result as pulling over 80 year old grandmothers in their 1971 Morris Minor.


2. So this is now going to become a race issue is it?


3. Nothing will come back from the Minister or the Commissioner. Your complaint will be acknowledged but that's about it. It is not excessive, it is not harrassment, they are doing their job.


4. You wanted constructive comments on how to deal with the issue instead of a lecture, well I did give you some advice. I said it's pointless because no one has done anything wrong.


5. What do you really expect to get out of this? A nationwide directive issued to not pull you over? An alert placed on the system saying to never pull you over? Permission to be sought from yourself or someone high up the ranks before they can activate the lights to pull you over? A letter apologising for the harrassment? Instructions that you can only be pulled over in certain situations, times of the day, etc?




i take what yor saying an apprecitae your candour in this matter and i will address your points as best i can.

your point..

1. Indeed my mates have said the gang drug dealers are aware of the police action to hit the harley riders hard..however they are 2-3 steps of the police in this regard as an aquantance involved with the illegal trade has said..they use the harleys as a hare for the police to focus on...mean time they are driving past in the grandma grandpa toyota people carrier loaded to the max with drugs..best way to hide a tree is in the forest (not on an obvious noisy harley davidson with limited carrying capacity)

2. race issue...i,m not saying that..i simply said europeans i know who ride harleys dont get pulled up as much as non europeans..i point your attention to the issues in America with afro-american citizens being targetted for police attention more than white americans... something similar is exposing its self here in my opinion ..simply highlighted by the facts.

3.how do you know nothing will come back from the commissioner or ministry? i think when attention is directed at certain issues (via media etc) things become noted and responses are much greater..i refer you to the new ACC regime they are now trying to bring in...targetting bikes over 601cc..there is a thing called the power of one and rather than just sit back and take it like most kiwis do in apathy..i prefer to make a point...because you just dont know how many other riders are going through the same issues and no one has stood up and said hey...no more

4. right and wrong is based on perspective and should be objective..what YOU say is right may be wrong to me,why? because its not you being pulled over all the time

5.what do i expect? well for starters riding for 30 years and can count 3 pul overs in that time, a clean driving/riding record...my understanding is i should not be interfered wit os stopped when going about my lawfull bussiness unless ibreach a local traffic by law or new zealand law.  and yes..a note placed on the bullitines to say hey...run the number plate as you foillow the rider..do the check how many times riders been pulled over...give said rider a break..simple becasue to be honest...i,m fast loosing respect for the police and maybe in future when they need my help..i may just turn a blind eye


i think the police need to get smart..not target whats an easy target..perhasp this is why the drug is booming so much because they are not using thier noggins to recognize the drug dealers are not using harleys which stick out like dogs balls to run drugs.


but thank you for your comments and advice...great response and intelligent

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  # 266880 26-Oct-2009 14:40
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I give up. Good luck, I hope you get the closure you need to be able to get over this. Surely there are more important things in life to worry about? I can tell you now that your attempts to get what you want are going to be futile, sure it may even grab the attention of the media for one day, but I can assure you a direction about police procedures specific to you is not going to be enacted. Anyway, your perogative I guess.



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  # 266884 26-Oct-2009 14:46
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marmel: While I realise it is annoying to get pulled over on a regular basis unfortunately it is simply a sign that the police are doing there job.

Targeting gang members is one aspect in the fight against the illegal drug trade, especially meth etc. A lot of gang members are riding either without a motorbike licence at all or on restricted licences that prevent them from riding bikes above 250cc. Stopping them as often as possible is one way to get their demerit points up to 100 to have there licences suspended.

I appreciate that you are not a gang member but it would be very hard to tell from a quick glance, given that you are riding one of the main forms of transport of omcg members and dressed in black with a patch on your back.

It is a fine balance between living in a free society and empowering government agencies to protect that freedom by enforcing the laws of the land. I think the balance is about right and in most democracies I think this is achieved over time.

I know another group that get stopped a lot are nightshift workers as has been mentioned above, especially if they are on their way home in the early hours of the morning. Police are not picking on them, they are just targeting drink driving which happens to peak around this time.

I think this is one thing you have to accept and I think you need to look at where this type of dress code originated from in the first place. Dressing in leathers and wearing a patch came out of the 50's and the original 1% movement which led to the Hell's Angels and so forth being formed. Leathers are a great form of protection for bike riders I know but today there are a lot of modern alternatives which provide excellent if not better protection than leather.

I'm not telling you to change your gear but all I'm saying is being stopped for even 5 mintes a week by police on average is a small price to pay for the overll good that targeting gang memebrs does and if you stop, remove your helmet, give a smile and hand over your licence it will all be over in a flash and you will be on your way.



i think dressing in leathers is a safety thing as i,m sure most bike riders know..whats happened is the insecurity and stigma of gangs has associated itself to leathers equals trouble maker /gangs

last time i looked the armed forces where insignia aka patchs, the police wear patches aka insignia..its not the leathers or the patches that make you bad..its the perception made by people who know no better..ignorance is bliss i think.

i as a tax and rate payer expect to ride on my bike, with my leathers on roads i paid for protected by police who should be stopping people who  BREAK THE RULES of the road...not people who have done nothing wrong.

target the gangs for sure...sit down the road from their residence nail them when they come down the road..identify who they are..simple..

i have no objection to being stopped ..but to be honest mate..how would you feel ..your on the way to doctors and your pulled over . you and your wife just coming home from afternoon dinner and your pulled over, your on the way to meet friends your pulled over..why? becasue your skin is darker and you ride a harley!!


you know..the last time i was pulled up ...3 various make bikes were ahead of me .. we all rode past the cop..i got targetted..why did he not pull the other bikes over and check thier licences?
 


 
 
 
 




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  # 266885 26-Oct-2009 14:49
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corksta: I give up. Good luck, I hope you get the closure you need to be able to get over this. Surely there are more important things in life to worry about? I can tell you now that your attempts to get what you want are going to be futile, sure it may even grab the attention of the media for one day, but I can assure you a direction about police procedures specific to you is not going to be enacted. Anyway, your perogative I guess.



heck ..give up!!!??? no wonder the ozzies whoop us in sports...no wonder kiwis are so appathetic


just lay down and take?



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  # 266886 26-Oct-2009 14:51
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guyz:

2. race issue...i,m not saying that..i simply said europeans i know who ride harleys dont get pulled up as much as non europeans..i point your attention to the issues in America with afro-american citizens being targetted for police attention more than white americans... something similar is exposing its self here in my opinion ..simply highlighted by the facts.


Sorry, but where are the facts on police targetting anyone as a matter of race? Not to be rude, but your word of your mates is not a fact for me.

3.how do you know nothing will come back from the commissioner or ministry? i think when attention is directed at certain issues (via media etc) things become noted and responses are much greater..i refer you to the new ACC regime they are now trying to bring in...targetting bikes over 601cc..there is a thing called the power of one and rather than just sit back and take it like most kiwis do in apathy..i prefer to make a point...because you just dont know how many other riders are going through the same issues and no one has stood up and said hey...no more


Lets not forget me on my 250cc :P I agree that there can be no harm done in writing in, I do not think you will get anywhere by it.

4. right and wrong is based on perspective and should be objective..what YOU say is right may be wrong to me,why? because its not you being pulled over all the time


I think right and wrong is not what we think here, but what is required of the police officers to do their job effectively and efficiently.

5.what do i expect? well for starters riding for 30 years and can count 3 pul overs in that time, a clean driving/riding record...my understanding is i should not be interfered wit os stopped when going about my lawfull bussiness unless ibreach a local traffic by law or new zealand law.  and yes..a note placed on the bullitines to say hey...run the number plate as you foillow the rider..do the check how many times riders been pulled over...give said rider a break..simple becasue to be honest...i,m fast loosing respect for the police and maybe in future when they need my help..i may just turn a blind eye


Unfortunately, comms can get very busy at times, and unless an officer has a suspision about the person/vehicle, there is not always a need to get comms involved. At times there long 'queues' for officers to talk with comms, and the new digital radios will help with this. But if police were required to call in every time they pull someone over, you might be waiting on the side of the road for 30mins, just to be told 'have a nice day'. Maybe you will be happy to hear about this. But both this new PDA and the current system require reception of the required network, so there will always be times when checks are not recorded.

Personally, I would have no problem with the NZP pulling me over, atleast then I know they are actively out there trying to do their job.

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  # 266888 26-Oct-2009 14:58
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Also, I thought you said race was not an issue, yet you are still mentioning it.

Just because you are breaking the rules, does not mean it can be spotted by an officer as you drive past. Pro-active policing is how they can target these people, and how they can protect you and your family.

How would you feel if you found out that someone died after being hit by someone without a licence? Now, they have been driving for years, and the police never pulled them over as they 'looked' like they were old enough to drive, and their car had nothing obvious wrong with it. They have broken the law, but how are the police to know that unless they pro-actively police the roads and do spot checks on vehicles and drivers?

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  # 266891 26-Oct-2009 15:02
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Pulling the race card is interesting. To be honest, I struggle to pick the sex of a motorcycle rider I'm following, let alone the colour of their skin. You've already indicated you wear full leathers which I assume include gloves. Perhaps you don't wear a full helmet (and if you do then there is absolutely zero chance that a police officer can determine your race before pulling you over) but even then, generally cops will pull you over from behind and it surely must be difficult to determine skin colour from a small amount of facial skin passing by at 50km/hr.

I can understand your frustration about feeling harrassed but pulling the race card is a little far-fetched. Just like those good, law-abiding, tax-paying, charity donating citizens that drive cars that can be deemed 'boy-racer' cars, there are certain cons that have to be taken with the pros of driving these sorts of vehicles.

As has been said, it's the nasty few that spoil the fun for the masses.



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  # 266892 26-Oct-2009 15:13
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regards to all commentors re race issue.its hard to be objective when you are of european decent and to say race has no considerations..if thats true then what you ride should be of no consideration also if kept in the same objective vain.. because as you have all said..you ride a harley, where leathers with a patch..there fore you are possibly a gang member and drug courier?

i have stated my european mates rarely get pulled over..yet my darker skinned mates are more so..this is commented by all my mates of all ethnicities ..so no.. i have  not pulled the race card..but i,m free to say the police have

i do however appreciatte everyones candour..i will keep all updated with pull over count and responses to my letters




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  # 266897 26-Oct-2009 15:35
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Could purely be just a bad run of luck...

But that said, if you 'rip into the cops' as you said, ya gona get yourself blackflagged...

Cops do keep a list of regos and owners of known offenders...such as boyracers, people they know illegally modify cars and race etc...

Should you be abusive to the cops, you could very well find yourself being targeted just the same because the cops know that previously you have been 'an issue'

There is no laws stopping them checking ya out, that's their job, and if ya doing nothing wrong...then just chill, and all will be good.




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  # 266899 26-Oct-2009 15:40
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corksta:
guyz: in 5 weeks i have been pulled over 7 times..on average every 3-4 days.

i ride a 1450cc harley davidson..black leathers etc..i,m a member of HOG (harley davidson owners group) so have a small club patch.

i have been pulled over for licence checks and rego/warrant..nothing illegal in what i,m doing..just riding and minding my own bussiness.

now 7 times in 5 weeks is ridiculas..i went into the local police and lodged a complaint and now writing to minister and commisioner as well as media

any body out there who can offer some info regarding limitations on how many times cops can pull you over in a period of time? as this is now bordering on harrasment

keep in mind i pay my taxs,run my own bussiness and support charities..i want to know why because i ride a harley i should be targetted becasue they are chasing the gangsters?



It's a police officer's job to investigate. Gang members ride Harleys, gang members transport drugs while riding their Harleys. Riding and minding your own business doesn't exempt you from the law.


If it were one police officer pulling you over each time then sure you may have grounds to complain. Different officers on each occasion = they are doing their job, complaining to the Minister and going to the media will not result in anything. It is not harrassment.


Police officers also pay taxes and support charities.


If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. "Ripping them up" each time they pull you over will not make things better and achieves nothing.


Don't blame the police they are just doing what they are paid to do. Blame the gang members who have created this situation.


it doesn't matter if you havn't done anything wrong or not it just feels uneasy know they the police are behide you and want you to pull over red blue red blue red blue. it gets to be a pain in the bum after a while i wish that the police could note down that you aren't a gang member. i also know the police data base has a record of how many time's they have done a QVR on you. they should bealbe to do a mobile QVR and ask

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  # 266900 26-Oct-2009 15:42
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bcourtney: Pulling the race card is interesting. To be honest, I struggle to pick the sex of a motorcycle rider I'm following, let alone the colour of their skin. You've already indicated you wear full leathers which I assume include gloves. Perhaps you don't wear a full helmet (and if you do then there is absolutely zero chance that a police officer can determine your race before pulling you over) but even then, generally cops will pull you over from behind and it surely must be difficult to determine skin colour from a small amount of facial skin passing by at 50km/hr.

I can understand your frustration about feeling harrassed but pulling the race card is a little far-fetched. Just like those good, law-abiding, tax-paying, charity donating citizens that drive cars that can be deemed 'boy-racer' cars, there are certain cons that have to be taken with the pros of driving these sorts of vehicles.

As has been said, it's the nasty few that spoil the fun for the masses.


I was about to say the same thing.

How can race possibly have anything to do with it - there is just not a chance in hell that a cop will be able to tell what race you are until you are already pulled over.

ETA: unless they aren't wearing a helmet,  in which case they should be being pulled over.

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