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699 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 523770 20-Sep-2011 21:24
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NonprayingMantis: 

since you are on the net to be posting this, you also have them at your fingertips

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kiwibank+subsidy



Ah, I see: you couldn't find it either.

You can't possibly be referring to that article in the NBR? I thought we were all dealing with credible, backed up facts in this skeptical forum.

Just reading the top article returned by google on your search (thanks), seems that there is a fair amount of doubt about the veracity of the NBR's opinion piece. It seems that said article also concedes that the 'subsidy' from NZ Post - actually, services like bill paying etc - were better situated with a bank, and some have said other banks might be well advised to join that bandwagon. *I* would call that good old kiwi innovation...

Seems your point didn't have a point. But no thanks for the joke google web site, I didn't think it was a phishing site at all.

Anyway, i was trying to discuss the finer points of the 'conspiracy theory' mind set; and the slightly more rational 'skeptical' mindset professed to be practiced (but seemingly absent) here.

But i have started to see a pattern to the more recent replies however. I'll let you know my findings later, when I am a little more sure of them.
 

gzt

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  Reply # 523774 20-Sep-2011 21:35
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Skolink: How far are you and Burningbeard from being inducted as a "Prince of Darkness"? I know someone who was about to be. They then decided to leave the masons. When he came to our community and spoke out against the masons they tried to run him out of town. The masons denied he was ever a member, and apparently all records of his membership were erased. 

I'm no expert but I don't think 'prince of darkness' is a masonic rank. At best I think there would be a lot of hyperbole in his story. It would not surprise me if this kind of thing repeated loudly enough really annoyed a few people and got him some local flak if he was going around saying the local masons were really a satanic cult worshipping satan etc. Having said that, it is all just a guess on my part and it would be interesting to hear the story in full.
 

 
 
 
 


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699 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 523782 20-Sep-2011 21:52
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ScottStevensNZ:
I think you are stretching the definition. A theory is by its nature is used to explain what is observed using logic and empirical data. You look at the results of experiments and work towards something that conforms to the observations and is testable. You don't start from a conclusion (9/11 was an inside job) and work backwards using non-empirical evidence (someone said they saw missiles on one of planes), heresay and assertion (therefore I beleive it was an inside job and therefore have some form of secret knowledge).


Thanks.

I think the confusion may come in part from what you think I am trying to achieve here. 

I'm not really interested in conspiracy theories - for all of them I have seen, they seem to ignore far better explanations. I think human nature explains the rest. That, and an imbalance of power/wealth.

No, I am well aware of the sillyness of those people - be they religious, new age, or just gulliable. I do not need to investigate them.

I am investigating the other side of the argument. The skeptics.

So far, it seems skeptics need to improve there game a bit too.  

gzt

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  Reply # 523786 20-Sep-2011 21:59
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Brendan: So far, it seems skeptics need to improve there game a bit too.  

In what way? Can you be more specific?

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  Reply # 523789 20-Sep-2011 22:04
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gzt:
Brendan: So far, it seems skeptics need to improve there game a bit too.  

In what way? Can you be more specific?


Not yet, sorry.
 

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  Reply # 523808 20-Sep-2011 22:56
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Brendan:
NonprayingMantis: 

since you are on the net to be posting this, you also have them at your fingertips

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kiwibank+subsidy



Ah, I see: you couldn't find it either.

You can't possibly be referring to that article in the NBR? I thought we were all dealing with credible, backed up facts in this skeptical forum.

Just reading the top article returned by google on your search (thanks), seems that there is a fair amount of doubt about the veracity of the NBR's opinion piece. It seems that said article also concedes that the 'subsidy' from NZ Post - actually, services like bill paying etc - were better situated with a bank, and some have said other banks might be well advised to join that bandwagon. *I* would call that good old kiwi innovation...

Seems your point didn't have a point. But no thanks for the joke google web site, I didn't think it was a phishing site at all.

 


lots of articles there all referring to the subsidy, most quite old like the nbr one (it's hardly news nowadays)
but more recent ones include:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10647584


which is a piece supporting kiwibank but includes:

"Although to be fair, Kiwibank has had an awful lot of help from its shareholder.There's actually been a lot more help than many realise. Kiwibank reports that it is profitable now, but there is a substantial ongoing subsidy in place that effectively pumps up its profit. Kiwibank received NZ$27.2 million in income from NZ Post for bill payment services in the six months to December, which is significantly bigger than its profit."

Now what Kiwibank has managed to do to the market I think is admirable - they have improved competition significantly.

However, could they stand up on their own two feet without the ~$30m from NZPost every year (for something that NZPost always did themselves anyway)?  Doubtful in my mind, and that was my point.  

 

I would be interested to see some evidence for your claims though:

 

When one was established anyway, they then said it would not survive, and that the fee's the older banks were charging was rock bottom, cant go any lower, financial suicide to attempt it.
When THAT was also done by the new bank, it was again asserted by the old banks that it would fail, and again they also asserted it was a a foolish waste of taxpayer money. I may also recall them trying to claim that the NZ public didn't want it.


which banks said this? when?


 




 

 

 



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  Reply # 523820 20-Sep-2011 23:45
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NonprayingMantis: 
lots of articles there all referring to the subsidy, most quite old like the nbr one (it's hardly news nowadays)
but more recent ones include:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10647584


which is a piece supporting kiwibank but includes:

"Although to be fair, Kiwibank has had an awful lot of help from its shareholder.There's actually been a lot more help than many realise. Kiwibank reports that it is profitable now, but there is a substantial ongoing subsidy in place that effectively pumps up its profit. Kiwibank received NZ$27.2 million in income from NZ Post for bill payment services in the six months to December, which is significantly bigger than its profit."

Now what Kiwibank has managed to do to the market I think is admirable - they have improved competition significantly.

However, could they stand up on their own two feet without the ~$30m from NZPost every year (for something that NZPost always did themselves anyway)?  Doubtful in my mind, and that was my point.  


That's ok, doubt away. I am not sure it really IS a subsidy, and i'll not mention bail-outs or customer gouging, as I'll not debate that for now.


I would be interested to see some evidence for your claims though:

When one was established anyway, they then said it would not survive, and that the fee's the older banks were charging was rock bottom, cant go any lower, financial suicide to attempt it.
When THAT was also done by the new bank, it was again asserted by the old banks that it would fail, and again they also asserted it was a a foolish waste of taxpayer money. I may also recall them trying to claim that the NZ public didn't want it.


which banks said this? when?


Most of those comments were from interviews conducted on TV, on the likes of the Holmes show. 

However, I did find a few things. Thanks for showing me how to use google; I would not have known otherwise.

The first one is this:Bernard Hickey: Cheers for Sam Knowles - Business - NZ Herald News

Yes, that is the same link you gave me. Surprising you missed it. It's the fourth paragraph down. Now, it doesn't name names, which is annoying, but I guessed if it was good enough for you to cite, it's trusted by you and you'll not need further convincing.


I also found this: NZ Post appointment of Cameron | News Releases | Jim Anderton's Progressives

This one if from Anderton himself, so might be suspect but it contains names and times so any of the mentioned parties could dispute it - but haven't. Apparently one Rob Cameron claimed some of the things I recall.

Newz Viewz - Kiwibank: The young contender - Issues.co.nz

I'm sure there are others, but life is short eh.


Anyway, I am not in this thread to debate banks. It's off topic for this thread. I know you are very interested, so I urge you to go to http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kiwibank+(failure|fail).

Good luck.


1073 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 523847 21-Sep-2011 07:30
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gzt: I'm no expert but I don't think 'prince of darkness' is a masonic rank. At best I think there would be a lot of hyperbole in his story. It would not surprise me if this kind of thing repeated loudly enough really annoyed a few people and got him some local flak if he was going around saying the local masons were really a satanic cult worshipping satan etc. Having said that, it is all just a guess on my part and it would be interesting to hear the story in full.
 

"Prince of Darkness" is the actual title. I'm inerested in hearing more details myself, so when we are next down south I'll ask. He is an older guy, and they have since moved, my parents know more details of what went on.

245 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 523908 21-Sep-2011 10:05
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oxnsox:
minimoke: Not sure if this counts as a "conspiracy" but if you aren't ready for 25 September you only have your self to blame.
Have to say I only got to just past 2.30 on this educational documentary on Elenin and I had my bags packed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZAOQNopok&feature=related 
(note to self: must get email off to poor Nigerian person wanting my help with their locked up funds before hand) 

Ready for what?
Our country will be gone, there will be no water (but somehow it will be raining) and I don't know what to do to protect myself against a 'cosmic-sonic-shockwave'.

I was however prepared to stay indoors with the sunnies on and apply extra sunscreen to get past the 'massive-infrared-forces'.  Even thought it might be good to put the chickens on the porch... hmmm gotta love barbecued chicken.  

One things for sure though, theres no point in moving house till after next weekend!! 


What? Have you not got your Illuminati survival pack with your 'get of the planet free' ticket ?




Load & Performance Tester/PHP/JSP/C/PERL/MYSQL/LoadRunner8->11/HTML/CSS/XML/XSLT/2B|!2B/Cervelo Soloist/EMC Equip4/ Samsung Galaxy S /Darkys 10.2 Extreme

Do androids dream of electric sheep?
use strict;
my $sheepCount;

Yes, they can.

245 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 523915 21-Sep-2011 10:21
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Brendan:
ScottStevensNZ:
I think you are stretching the definition. A theory is by its nature is used to explain what is observed using logic and empirical data. You look at the results of experiments and work towards something that conforms to the observations and is testable. You don't start from a conclusion (9/11 was an inside job) and work backwards using non-empirical evidence (someone said they saw missiles on one of planes), heresay and assertion (therefore I beleive it was an inside job and therefore have some form of secret knowledge).


Thanks.

I think the confusion may come in part from what you think I am trying to achieve here. 

I'm not really interested in conspiracy theories - for all of them I have seen, they seem to ignore far better explanations. I think human nature explains the rest. That, and an imbalance of power/wealth.

No, I am well aware of the sillyness of those people - be they religious, new age, or just gulliable. I do not need to investigate them.

I am investigating the other side of the argument. The skeptics.

So far, it seems skeptics need to improve there game a bit too.  


Actually, skeptics tend to be the most believeing people on earth, all we ask for is that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. A skeptic will beleive in a conspiracy - I believe Pearl Harbour happened, I believe that Wansee conference occured, I believe that directors of finance companies tried to keep attracting new investments even though they knew they couldn't pay out on their exisiting obligations. I do not believe in conspiracy theories because to be frank, the claims are extraordinary and I have never seen extraordinary proof to back those up - all I have ever seen is assertion, heresay and lots of very loosely correlated 'facts'. So by saying that skeptics need to 'improve' our game, what exactly do you mean? Should we loosen the rules that we use to evaluate claims?




Load & Performance Tester/PHP/JSP/C/PERL/MYSQL/LoadRunner8->11/HTML/CSS/XML/XSLT/2B|!2B/Cervelo Soloist/EMC Equip4/ Samsung Galaxy S /Darkys 10.2 Extreme

Do androids dream of electric sheep?
use strict;
my $sheepCount;

Yes, they can.

gzt

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  Reply # 524011 21-Sep-2011 12:31
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Brendan: So: do we have any reason, scientifically speaking, to exclude the possibility of say, intelligent alien life?

No. There is no scientific reason to exclude the possibility of sentient alien life. The point is there is no evidence for it actually existing. Possibility and physical evidence are very different. The former cannot be used to manufacture the latter.





 

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  Reply # 524038 21-Sep-2011 13:06
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ScottStevensNZ:
What? Have you not got your Illuminati survival pack with your 'get of the planet free' ticket ?

Of course... what do you take me for.  I'm tracking it now and the site says it's set for delivery on the 26th. 

245 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 524063 21-Sep-2011 13:59
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oxnsox:
ScottStevensNZ:
What? Have you not got your Illuminati survival pack with your 'get of the planet free' ticket ?

Of course... what do you take me for.  I'm tracking it now and the site says it's set for delivery on the 26th. 


Yeah, good thng we faked those moon landings so no one else could see the awesome plush domes that we were building up there with that tech we found from atlantis. You were of course using an Illuminati Protocol v 666 (IPv666) compliant browser to track the order?




Load & Performance Tester/PHP/JSP/C/PERL/MYSQL/LoadRunner8->11/HTML/CSS/XML/XSLT/2B|!2B/Cervelo Soloist/EMC Equip4/ Samsung Galaxy S /Darkys 10.2 Extreme

Do androids dream of electric sheep?
use strict;
my $sheepCount;

Yes, they can.

1598 posts

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gzt

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  Reply # 534807 18-Oct-2011 16:22
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codyc1515: Curious how you guys will dismiss this mind control patent.
http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,356,368.PN.&OS=PN/5,356,368&RS=PN/5,356,368

Laughing  

and this is evidence of what exactly? 

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