Occupy Together!!

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450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#535277 19-Oct-2011 17:49

There is a succint paragraph in an article on that Al Jezzera link, in the America's growing anti-intellectualism article.

"America has always had a critical thinking deficit, in that it has a long tradition of anti-intellectualism. This is particularly perverse, maddening and contradictory, since America's Founders were the most intellectual group that ever founded any nation we know of, and the desire to foster free and critical thinking, both in government and in the society at large, was one of their notable goals, as a direct consequence of the Enlightenment heritage on which America's Founders depended. "

Seems to apply equally here in NZ as well. Instead of regurgitating what you saw on Fox news, or heard on talk back radio, think about things, honestly, openly and critically..

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gzt

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#535281 19-Oct-2011 17:56

MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

Just to make the situation more complicated for you both

, Hitler was a democratically elected politician. Even after he had been in power for some time and almost 100% controlled the media etc, even then he never achieved a majority of the overall vote. This is the main reason the Allies set up a system of proportional representation (MMP) for Germany after the war, so there was no possibility a minority could ever govern like that again.

[Edit: correcting myself here, the situation was not that simple, the Allies significantly changed the constitutional arrangements as well]

Byrned

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Ultimate Geek

#535285 19-Oct-2011 18:01

MikeyPI:
Seems to apply equally here in NZ as well. Instead of regurgitating what you saw on Fox news, or heard on talk back radio, think about things, honestly, openly and critically..

That statement sounds a little hypocritical. After all numerous times you have quoted other articles yet if someone repeats something that they may feel strongly about that they heard about on talkback radio, that is not allowed?

I believe mostly what has been discussed here has been honest open and critical. It just represents that everyone has a different viewpoint on what is right/wrong/good/bad, whether that differs by an inch or a mile will determine how strongly you feel about the others comment.

gzt

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#535293 19-Oct-2011 18:27

blakamin:
codyc1515:
freitasm: Pictures from manifestations around the world.

Prime example of what I said earlier, these protests are just going to become violent and they did.

but, but, maaaan, it was teh pigs that started it!!!! /excuse

Looks to me like the places where it became violent are the places they are already having violent protests or places where they tend to have violent protests anyway.

The NYC gatherings and maybe most others around the world, have been nothing but peaceful.

MikeyPI

450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#535327 19-Oct-2011 20:05

Byrned:
MikeyPI:
Seems to apply equally here in NZ as well. Instead of regurgitating what you saw on Fox news, or heard on talk back radio, think about things, honestly, openly and critically..

That statement sounds a little hypocritical. After all numerous times you have quoted other articles yet if someone repeats something that they may feel strongly about that they heard about on talkback radio, that is not allowed?

I believe mostly what has been discussed here has been honest open and critical. It just represents that everyone has a different viewpoint on what is right/wrong/good/bad, whether that differs by an inch or a mile will determine how strongly you feel about the others comment.

what is with the misinformation in this thread??

Please point to 3 articles I have quoted in this thread.

I have no problem with anybody having strong feelings about anything, as long as they are open to an honest conversation about it.

I agree with that paragraph and believe that the evidence supports the general decline in critical thinking, if you disagree with that, then I am more than willing to discuss it.

I have seen NO honest nor critical thinking from the supporters of the status quo in this thread, merely attempt to ridicule, marginalise, and employ the same logical fallacies ie ad hominem & strawman attacks, as those who cannot, or will not discuss rationally..

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#535328 19-Oct-2011 20:12

MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

I am not saying that at all, that was history not the present, research the difference.

Dratsab

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#535332 19-Oct-2011 20:35

KiwiNZ:
MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

I am not saying that at all, that was history not the present, research the difference.

The protest here in Wellington is very peaceful at the moment. And I'm not trying to insinuate that's going to change.

It seems to consist of a constantly expanding/retracting group of 15-40 people on the city to sea bridge (by Civic Square) who've tied up a few banners declaring NZ to be a facist state. Somehow I don't think they'd be collecting a benefit (not too much of an assumption, I'm familiar with some of these people), or be allowed to just sit around like they are if this actually was a facist state...

However, they're keeping out of peoples way, minding their own business and not causing any trouble. Looking at the state of them, I find it difficult to lend them even an ounce of credibility, but they have a right to be there and express their opinions.

On another note, there's been a little commentary in previous posts about America, Europe and the middle east. There's also commentary about critical thinking. Let's exercise some of that critical thinking and not lump the vastly different situations in the middle east (where they have extremely repressive regimes) with what we have (in varying degrees) in western countries.

codyc1515

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#535366 19-Oct-2011 22:28

MikeyPI:
codyc1515:
freitasm: Pictures from manifestations around the world.

Prime example of what I said earlier, these protests are just going to become violent and they did.

To expand on this, violence is our society is still acceptable. We still violently execute those we believe to guilty of gross evil, we still exercise violent retribution, and we still allow violent sport.

Would it have been wrong for the German people to overthrow Hitler with force? Cambodians to Pol Pot?
Would it have been wrong for the American people to overthrow Bush to avoid the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the silent war in Pakistan?

Were you lamenting the violence shown in the protests in Egypt, Syria & others?

Are we finally at the point where the survival of a few, outweigh the survival of many?

Would it have been wrong for the Palestinian and Iranian people to overthrow Obama with force? Oh wait, they're terrorists...

gzt: @codyc1515 - I thought you said you were not coming back to this discussion after you got pinged for abusing the comment syntax?

Anyway, if you are going to return - some of your posts are interesting, but the huge number of them just overwhelms the discussion to the point where it is not a discussion anymore.

When I started writing this - out of the 10 posts on this page, 5 of them were yours. That's getting kind of silly.

Maybe combine your thoughts into fewer posts and wait a while before posting a response. Just a suggestion. It wouldn't kill ya.

Haha, yeah, couldn't help coming back I guess :) It doesn't help when I post something and then go back to add something in, then I can't as the time has expired. Also, waiting a while can result in the conversation drastically changing and my comments not being relevant any longer.

MikeyPI

450 posts

Ultimate Geek

#535398 20-Oct-2011 00:50

KiwiNZ:
MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

I am not saying that at all, that was history not the present, research the difference.

What can you say to something like that?? That takes the cake for the most irrelevant statement ever. You are aware that while it was happening, it was the present, yeah?

MikeB4

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#535412 20-Oct-2011 07:22

MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

I am not saying that at all, that was history not the present, research the difference.

What can you say to something like that?? That takes the cake for the most irrelevant statement ever. You are aware that while it was happening, it was the present, yeah?

It was the present when the Crusades were taking place are they relevant now? good grief if you go back 3,000 years I am sure you can drag up an old grievance to protest about.

gzt

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#535424 20-Oct-2011 08:05

Some video and pictures from occupy wellington:

More pictures here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1110/S00188/multimedia-occupy-wellington-sets-up-camp-in-civic-square.htm

Byrned

453 posts

Ultimate Geek

#535425 20-Oct-2011 08:05

MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
MikeyPI:
KiwiNZ:
Survival of many, achieved by violence.

Thank you for proving to me that this is just nonsense and participated in by those who just want to cause trouble and destroy things.

Wait, so what your saying is it would have been wrong for those societies to violently over throw fascist regimes????

If so think about that for a moment.... You would happily allow the deaths of a million or so people, just so no one hurt your leaders? Thats both morally and intellectually bankrupt..

I am not saying that at all, that was history not the present, research the difference.

What can you say to something like that?? That takes the cake for the most irrelevant statement ever. You are aware that while it was happening, it was the present, yeah?

I agree with you here, replying to that would be like beating your head on a brick wall!

Byrned

453 posts

Ultimate Geek

#535439 20-Oct-2011 08:41

MikeyPI:
I have seen NO honest nor critical thinking from the supporters of the status quo in this thread, merely attempt to ridicule, marginalise, and employ the same logical fallacies ie ad hominem & strawman attacks, as those who cannot, or will not discuss rationally..

By and large I am happy with the status quo. Sure there are some things that need to change, but mostly I think the system works. To date, I have seen no creditable alternative to the current system apart from complaining about the system.

The revolutionaries from the past that have been pointed to set out with a clear goal of what the wanted. So, without an idea of what is wanted, lets shelve talk of revolution as it's not just pointless, it's dangerous. Taking down the current system with no idea of what you want to achieve will only lead to anarchism, and I for one do not want to live on the streets of Baghdad or Mogadishu.

From what I understand the whole "Occupy Wall St" movement is about, it's about excessive greed and corporate control of the US. These are two things that I don't think you can just take and unilaterally apply to NZ. Sure, we have some people that earn over a million bucks a year, but from what I see, it’s a handful at best. And we certainly don’t anything like the same lobbying that they do in the US to persuade those in Government. This is best showed by the “Corruption Perceptions Index” which shows the misuse of power for personal gain. New Zealand ranks equal as the best country in the world. The US is ranked at number 22.

I think it is unfortunate that something that has started as a good idea has suffered because of a lack of leadership, and a lack of a clear and concise direction. By our own nature we need leadership and if there was more of it, more people would most likely agree with some of the things being said.

As it stands this movement just feels like it is for everyone that is not happy with their lot in life. I’m not saying everyone that is involved is this way, but can you see from the otherside how we’re looking at this? We don’t know what it’s about (that question was asked numerous times at the start of the thread, and not really answered until well into it), and we just see the same people complaining. Of course those of us that are happy (or even just ok) wil not get it. It doesn’t mean we don’t want to know. But it sure seems like a lot of people caught up in this don’t even really know what it’s about, or maybe just don’t care and are using it as a way to promote their own agenda.

And sorry in advance if my thinking is a little all over the place. Been battling Pneumonia all week.

MikeB4

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#535441 20-Oct-2011 08:42

gzt: Some video and pictures from occupy wellington:

More pictures here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1110/S00188/multimedia-occupy-wellington-sets-up-camp-in-civic-square.htm

It's always someone other than them that is to blame

Rent-a-crowd

Byrned

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Ultimate Geek

#535446 20-Oct-2011 08:54

Just curious if anyone knows if there has been any polling done on this as to what percentage of the population actually supports it? When you think about it, it's quite clever marketing to say "We are the 99%", obviously implying that the movement is large, whereas it might only be that 5 or 10 percent of people support it.

I mean, even if you said there are 400,000 people supporting this in New York, thats still only 5% of the cities population.

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