Occupy Together!!

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#539623 31-Oct-2011 16:13

Until someone can explain to me why people who earn over arbitraryPersonalIncome() are the problem with the economy I will continue to fail to comprehend the protests.

The protests are more about the overall structure of the economy rather than anyone's high personal income.

In the US they climbed steeply to 10% unemployment after the financial collapse, the steepest climb ever possibly. The current rate is 9.1%, the overall trend at present is unclear. Basic infrastructure like road maintenance, public transport, libraries (and even streetlighting) has been cut in a number of places & this tends to create other pressures. Real median income has been static for a few years now.

Mostly I think Americans want these problems taken seriously rather than channeled through the usual political party horse trading and special interest lobbying negotiation process.

Quoting Joseph Stiglitz (economist) speaking at an Occupy: "Our financial markets have an important role to play. They’re supposed to allocate capital, manage risks. But they misallocated capital, and they created risk. We are bearing the cost of their misdeeds. There’s a system where we’ve socialized losses and privatized gains. That’s not capitalism; that’s not a market economy. That’s a distorted economy, and if we continue with that, we won’t succeed in growing, and we won’t succeed in creating a just society."

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BurningBeard

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#539690 31-Oct-2011 19:43

This is refreshing to see

"The text of a talk given at Occupy Wellington, New Zealand, on October 27 2011. Around 55 people attended the talk, organised to try to counter the prevalence of conspiracy theories amongst the local wing of the Occupy movement."

My very metal Doctor Who theme

codyc1515

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#539693 31-Oct-2011 19:57

Phil Goff just admitted on the debate that it was "rent a protest".

mattRSK

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#539710 31-Oct-2011 20:45

Good to see some honesty then

lyonrouge

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#539876 1-Nov-2011 13:00

So I popped in to see them today, and I have come away more confused than I was before. It appears to be gay rights, Māori sovereignty and the liberation of Palestine, not quite what I was expecting.

graemeh

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#539884 1-Nov-2011 13:14

lyonrouge: So I popped in to see them today, and I have come away more confused than I was before. It appears to be gay rights, Māori sovereignty and the liberation of Palestine, not quite what I was expecting.

So nobody protesting about oil exploration? Perhaps that's just the Wellington rabble.

Ragnor

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#539888 1-Nov-2011 13:17

Classic Peter Schiff at Occupy Wall Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c

lyonrouge

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#539934 1-Nov-2011 14:25

graemeh:
lyonrouge: So I popped in to see them today, and I have come away more confused than I was before. It appears to be gay rights, Māori sovereignty and the liberation of Palestine, not quite what I was expecting.

So nobody protesting about oil exploration? Perhaps that's just the Wellington rabble.

Possibly there was, it seemed like a group protesting about everything and nothing. I gave up after a while and went for my lunch.

codyc1515

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#540318 2-Nov-2011 13:38

Interesting compiled list of who is actually supporting/promoting the movement: http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2011/10/31/the-99-official-list-of-ows/

Linuxluver

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#540411 2-Nov-2011 17:58

lyonrouge: So I popped in to see them today, and I have come away more confused than I was before. It appears to be gay rights, Māori sovereignty and the liberation of Palestine, not quite what I was expecting.

The people there are mainly people who have been activists for a while. They have to be that sort as the vast majority of people stand well back from the Fear Barrier and just watch quietly. They might get embarrassed about something and cry.

The people who take action are well past being embarrased and generally put themselves out there in a fairly courageous way....whether you agree with the specific issue or not is another matter.

I have a lot of time for people who get off their butts, stand up and SAY something....even if some of them just talk crap.

The bottom line for me is they are protesting about the way the wealthy few get laws they want...and the rest of us have nothing like that kind of power.

Example: Peter Shirtcliffe makes some BIG donations to the National Party...and we're having a referendum on MMP because of it.

THREE separate attempts to get 5% of the populace to sign a Citizens Initiated Referendum petition failed dismally for lack of interest. But one wealthy old guy who thinks you shouldn't have a vote that's worth anything if you vote for people he doesn't like drops some cash....and BINGO!....You're 3 weeks away from losing your MMP party vote. For most people that's the ONLY vote they have that actually elects anyone.

That's enough to be angry about right there, never mind assets sales and pulling the wings off ACC to give business to insurance companies who won't insure Christchurch.

With the Multi-National 1% Party in the Beehive, you know NZ isn't being run for you.....Their actions in almost every sector make that abundantly clear. But most of the silly fools who plan to vote for them are completely unaware of what is REALLY being done in their name. But they must be silly. Imagine a National Party voter in Mana (safe Labour seat) voting to get rid of MMP. They may as well never vote again. Dumb as a plank.

So yeah...the people in the Occupy movement will be coming from all directions at once. There is no shortage of choice.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

Talkiet

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#540420 2-Nov-2011 18:22

Linuxluver: [snip]
With the Multi-National 1% Party in the Beehive, you know NZ isn't being run for you.....Their actions in almost every sector make that abundantly clear.[snip]

On the other hand, the genuinely minor parties have some comicly irresponsible policies that don't stand up to 30 seconds of consideration.

I'm not rich, the bank owns most of my home and I don't own any shares.

But I still want responsible economic policies and I understand that if you want more spending you need more taxes... I also believe that taxes shouldn't get any less equitable than they are at the moment - the rich are paying a HUGE amount more tax than the poor. I just don't care about emotional, unreasoned arguments that boil down to "Robin Hood" approaches...

Most people conveniently forget that if big business can run more cheaply elsewhere (overseas) or if they don't get an acceptable return on investment, then they simply won't stay in NZ. Explain how that's actually good for employment...

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

gzt

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#540458 2-Nov-2011 20:43

Talkiet: [snip] I'm not rich, the bank owns most of my home and I don't own any shares. But I still want responsible economic policies [snip]

Talkiet: [snip] Most people conveniently forget that if big business can run more cheaply elsewhere (overseas) or if they don't get an acceptable return on investment, then they simply won't stay in NZ. Explain how that's actually good for employment... [snip]

A financial transaction tax of some kind might suit your requirements.

A lot of the world's financial flows are speculation only. Apart from making a gain, this has a role to play in price signalling. There are many instances where speculation has caused severe instability.

There are various types of FTT, but in general the idea is an FTT would take a tiny cut of that traffic as it passes through. It is possible this may also reduce some portion of pure speculative activity as well, but this is a byproduct rather than the aim.

The idea is that it is so small it will have a negligible impact on things like import/export type currency trades and real investment in the sharemarket - simply because the proportion of speculative trade is so much higher. Therefore the overwhelming bulk of revenue from an FTT will derive from speculative activity.

The precise implementation of an FTT is no doubt very technical, but that's the idea behind it.

The idea of an FTT has been gaining ground for some time now. Early in the year both Sarkozy (France) and Merkel (Germany) were proposing something similar and looking for international support. Both are leaders of conservative type parties.

As far as NZ goes, Labour (finance: Cunliffe) has indicated it is worth looking at, National are not hostile to the idea of FTT, & the small Mana party has some kind of FTT as policy.

[Edit: How could I forget: An FTT is also being advocated by OWS. Which again makes OWS more mainstream than they might appear at first sight)]

lyonrouge

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#540565 3-Nov-2011 08:10

Introduction of a FTT and the elimination of the Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme (at least in its current form) I am keen on, but Occupy does not have that focus, instead, it's the 1% of professional protesters who tarnish what could have been an effective movement.

I am one of the 99%. A regular Kiwi who loves his country. I love who we are and how we got here. I'm a Maori descendent and expect nothing because of it. I have no children and pay for private health care, but never complain about paying tax for services I don't use becuase it is for the good of the country as a whole. I appreciate that people can find themselves in hard times and social welfare helps those, but those should try and help themselves.

I am a social conservative, one of the 99%.

I believe in equal rights for all New Zealanders, that does not make me a fascist.

gzt

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#540623 3-Nov-2011 10:24

lyonrouge: Introduction of a FTT and the elimination of the Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme (at least in its current form) I am keen on, but Occupy does not have that focus, instead, it's the 1% of professional protesters who tarnish what could have been an effective movement.

The G20 (Australia is a member but not NZ) will consider an international FTT proposal later today. Germany and France will advocate. The US is expected to oppose. The UK has stated they will do it only if everyone else does (and are understood in practice as opposed). Bill Gates is expected to be there lobbying in support.

I dropped by Occupy in Auckland a couple of weeks back. The professional protesters were conspicuous at first. I arrived during a general assembly meeting. At one point the facilitator asked everyone to get together in groups of five to discuss something. My group of six people seemed fairly representative of NZ. After that it seemed a bit less radical. One guy had been dropping in after work for a couple of days. One guy who was staying there told me he found it a bit strange but said he was there for a higher purpose and didn't care about the occasional problem.

The rotating facilitation duties of the assembly seem designed to prevent any particular groups taking over completely.

If Occupy is creating some additional pressure for FTT, then it is being effective in some way.

John2010

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#540626 3-Nov-2011 10:27

Regarding the comments on a FTT on speculative trading, the vast majority of currency trading takes place outside of NZ - in fact, around 60% of it takes place in just 3 cities. While it is likely a surprise to some, NZ does not of course have tax jurisdiction over other countries. I would also suggest that the vast majority of currency speculators (in terms of trades) are not NZ tax residents.

If there was a financial transaction tax on fx transactions in NZ one would expect transactions of any magnitude to just move to being made offshore (although the tax could be placed on NZ tax residents on declared offshore trades).

So it is not going to fly.

If there is a financial transaction tax on ordinary financial transactions made within NZ (withdrawals, deposits, etc) it just becomes another tax on all of us and has to be looked at as to its merits and demerits as opposed other collection methods.

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