Occupy Together!!

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Reply # 534366 17-Oct-2011 16:42

P1n3apqlExpr3ss:
MikeSkyrme: On another note, I see that there is a protest planned in Auckland today, in Aotea Square..? Will be interesting to see what happens when they all need to visit the little room...

Thought they were just camping up at Aotea for as long as it takes for them to get recognised? Saw them massing by Britomart on saturday and the ones i took notice of just seem like bored university students or hippies

As for the 99% vs 1% debate, we voted half of them into parliament in this democracy, you're not going to find a 4.4 million person government any time soon. Plus you have the referendum this November, no idea if that would change anything. Oh and the other half we can avoid by not buying their goods and services, dont like the corporate greed of say... Apple? Dont buy their stuff and encourage others not too, simple as that.

Most of these people are young? Theyre meant to be the entrepreneurs and not the protesters, leave that to Minto and his loony crew

Ok, I am not sure how long they plan to be there, I broke one of my own rules and used information supplied by the NZ HErald which stated they planned to stay camped out for 6 weeks.

I must confess, I have read your second paragraph a few times now and really do not understand what you are saying... My point was that the protesters should not claim they represent 99% of the population, as they clearly do not.

I agree with your last comment, these people should be the entrepreneurs.

The whole protest (IMHO) really comes across as a case of the 'have nots' complaining about the 'haves'.

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

oxnsox

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Reply # 534378 17-Oct-2011 17:03

Its all more complex than all of this.

If 1% of the people have the power thru financial and political control, then the other 99% only have the power to register their discontent... through the ballot box.

As individuals we have little impact on financial models and institutions that control a significant percentage of global GDP.... but as voters we have some control over the political processes that allow the institutions the power to manipulate markets, and ultimately governments, and economies.

This movement is more about making politicians aware of the voters side of the coin rather than the 1-percenters side. It's not political in the traditional sense of Red/Blue/Green or Republican/Democrat, its about general dissatisfaction that the system isn't working.

Sure there are those who'll use soapboxes and forums to politicize their take on the general malaise, but the issues are ultimately too organic for that. And no-one has 'the' solution because to do that they'd have to define the problem, and the reality is that it's not simply definable. It's a generic viral dissatisfaction with the status quo, an upwelling of 'what-ever-you-lot-are-doing-isn't-working-for-the-rest-of-us'.

As an issue it really is that simple. But on a global basis it's a disparate soup of, the concerned, do-gooders, activists, and politically disenfranchised... it's a ladle full of the 99%... They can't have cohesion because they're too diverse. But they can all vote, and if nothing else that is their common voice.

P1n3apqlExpr3ss

818 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Reply # 534379 17-Oct-2011 17:04

MikeSkyrme:
P1n3apqlExpr3ss:
MikeSkyrme: On another note, I see that there is a protest planned in Auckland today, in Aotea Square..? Will be interesting to see what happens when they all need to visit the little room...

Thought they were just camping up at Aotea for as long as it takes for them to get recognised? Saw them massing by Britomart on saturday and the ones i took notice of just seem like bored university students or hippies

As for the 99% vs 1% debate, we voted half of them into parliament in this democracy, you're not going to find a 4.4 million person government any time soon. Plus you have the referendum this November, no idea if that would change anything. Oh and the other half we can avoid by not buying their goods and services, dont like the corporate greed of say... Apple? Dont buy their stuff and encourage others not too, simple as that.

Most of these people are young? Theyre meant to be the entrepreneurs and not the protesters, leave that to Minto and his loony crew

Ok, I am not sure how long they plan to be there, I broke one of my own rules and used information supplied by the NZ HErald which stated they planned to stay camped out for 6 weeks.

I must confess, I have read your second paragraph a few times now and really do not understand what you are saying... My point was that the protesters should not claim they represent 99% of the population, as they clearly do not.

I agree with your last comment, these people should be the entrepreneurs.

The whole protest (IMHO) really comes across as a case of the 'have nots' complaining about the 'haves'.

Sorry about the confusion, the second paragraph just contains my general view on it and not a reply to your comments. I barely understand what they're actually protesting for or against, even after reading through this thread just the 1 against 99 stood out

NonprayingMantis

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Reply # 534380 17-Oct-2011 17:05

MikeSkyrme: On another note, I see that there is a protest planned in Auckland today, in Aotea Square..? Will be interesting to see what happens when they all need to visit the little room...

Probably pull down their jeans made by a large profit driven corporation before defecating into a toilet made by a large profit driven corporation, then wiping their rear with toilet paper made by a large profit driven corporation, before washing their hands using soap made by a large profit driven corporation.

I expect after that they will take photos of the protest using their phone made by a large profit driven corporation before uploading it to facebook (a large profit driven corporation) via the mobile network (built by a large profit driven corporation).

Probably they will add a comment about how they are going to hit large profit driven corporations where it hurts by boycotting their products.

feisha

9 posts

Wannabe Geek

Reply # 534387 17-Oct-2011 17:27

Hi geeks, the goals of protesters may not be clearly defined but the causes of the systemic failure that encourage the protests are easily researched. I am too new to gz to post links but try chrismartenson . com / crashcourse and theoildrum, transition towns etc and evaluate it for yourselves.
You don't even need to go near climate change. Cheers.

webwat

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Reply # 534389 17-Oct-2011 17:29

Seems that its simply degenerating into a chance for crims to throw stuff at police in some countries. Ironic that Italy and Greece have people protesting about stuff that has already caused enough government populism and fiscal stupidity to kick of a crisis that could easily bring down half of Europe. They want more and more free stuff without creating any value themselves, and the Europeans keep bailing them out ? has to end somewhere. Also ironic that some of Greece's GDP (with its irresponsible management) is now grounded in the Bay OF Plenty.

I did have an idea though. Its not workable of course because it would give the Labour department an excuse create another massive bureaucracy, but here it is: all companies over some arbitrary size could be required to invest a proportion of its wages bill into training or staff development programmes.

Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going ^_^

Byrned

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Reply # 534393 17-Oct-2011 17:38

Personally I believe what most people are upset about is a cutback in services offered by governments and the like, and they associate that with the counter side of large corporates seemingly making large sums of money and paying huge bonuses. I say seemingly as I have no idea of the profits of most corporates.

From what I understand, a lot, if not most of the corporates that took advantage of any bailout money have repaid this money now. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ostensibly much of these added services have been able to be paid over the years due to the debt fueled spending spree the world has been on for the last 10 years. Greece is a classic example of this with huge cutbacks, massive riots because of this, but massive amounts of tax evasion!, or other "brilliant" things like not being able to make anyone in the public service redundant.

Byrned

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Reply # 534398 17-Oct-2011 17:43

webwat:

I did have an idea though. Its not workable of course because it would give the Labour department an excuse create another massive bureaucracy, but here it is: all companies over some arbitrary size could be required to invest a proportion of its wages bill into training or staff development programmes.

Would just cause companies to separate businesses into smaller umbrella companies.

As an example, its one of the reasons a well known australian retailler has multiple "franchised" departments within one store. Western Australia used to have some labour law that dictated employers over a certain size had to have certain opening hours, or something like that. It was a long time ago I found out about it!

MikeSkyrme

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Reply # 534425 17-Oct-2011 18:49

Byrned:
webwat:

I did have an idea though. Its not workable of course because it would give the Labour department an excuse create another massive bureaucracy, but here it is: all companies over some arbitrary size could be required to invest a proportion of its wages bill into training or staff development programmes.

Would just cause companies to separate businesses into smaller umbrella companies.

As an example, its one of the reasons a well known australian retailler has multiple "franchised" departments within one store. Western Australia used to have some labour law that dictated employers over a certain size had to have certain opening hours, or something like that. It was a long time ago I found out about it!

Two thoughts here.....

Why would a company spend money training people who will then take that training elsewhere in search of more $$$..

And to counter that:

Any company worth it's salt is probably already investing time / money in training and development of employees...

Agree with Byrned, as soon as laws are passed, those that do not want to comply will find a way of not doing so.

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

MikeSkyrme

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Reply # 534430 17-Oct-2011 18:57

feisha: Hi geeks, the goals of protesters may not be clearly defined but the causes of the systemic failure that encourage the protests are easily researched. I am too new to gz to post links but try chrismartenson . com / crashcourse and theoildrum, transition towns etc and evaluate it for yourselves.
You don't even need to go near climate change. Cheers.

"Systemic failure"..?

Obviously the system is not completely failing, otherwise every single person on the planet would be in agreement with the protests.

If all of the people were in agreement, then action would be taken to make a change, would it not?

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

gzt

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Reply # 534450 17-Oct-2011 19:39

Ragnor: Looking at the US the oddest thing is they are occupying the wrong place.... they should be protesting at the White House not Wall Street...

There are so many branches of government to choose from: City, State, Federal, Congress, Administration

America's system of government practically guarantees an American no chance of getting their views represented - no matter where on the political spectrum their views are.

By the time all the back-scratching, deal-doing, and then the lobbying arm-twisting is done, there is not much energy in the system left for anything anyone actually voted for.

blakamin

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Reply # 534452 17-Oct-2011 19:41

I'd guess 50% of the "99%" probably aren't even enrolled to vote...

oxnsox

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Reply # 534476 17-Oct-2011 20:58

MikeSkyrme:
Obviously the system is not completely failing, otherwise every single person on the planet would be in agreement with the protests.

Maybe they will.... in time....

If all of the people were in agreement, then action would be taken to make a change, would it not?

It's not working out that way in Syria, nor many other countries.
But tis a fine line between Politics and policies, similar I suppose to the one that might separate Leaders and leadership

MikeSkyrme

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Reply # 534480 17-Oct-2011 21:21

oxnsox:
MikeSkyrme:
Obviously the system is not completely failing, otherwise every single person on the planet would be in agreement with the protests.

Maybe they will.... in time....

If all of the people were in agreement, then action would be taken to make a change, would it not?
It's not working out that way in Syria, nor many other countries.
But tis a fine line between Politics and policies, similar I suppose to the one that might separate Leaders and leadership

Your example re Syria confirms my point. The protests there were not attended by 99% of the population were they?

All of the people on the planet will never agree that protests are wattanted, because whilst 99% of the 'people' may be unhappy, and wish to protest, those 99% will never agree on what needs to be done to fix the perceived problem, this is because they all have different complaints which would require different and therefore conflicting solutions.

I say again, the so called 99% do not speak for me. I am certain that they would struggle with 9.9%.

Does anyone actually know what the protesters are offering in the way of solutions to the problems?

Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

ScottStevensNZ

245 posts

Master Geek

Reply # 534573 18-Oct-2011 09:33

dontpanic42: Is anyone attending any Occupy events around New Zealand, or planning to attend?

http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

I've been watching the above livestream from the NYC Wall St event for the last couple of days (not constantly).
Some very inspiring stuff going on around the world.

The revolution is upon us.

We are the 99%.
We will not be ignored.

http://www.occupytogether.org/

George Orwells 1984 has made me cynical

-For long periods the High seem to be securely in power, but sooner or later there always comes a moment when they lose either their belief in themselves or their capacity to govern efficiently, or both. They are then overthrown by the Middle, who enlist the Low on their side by pretending to them that they are fighting for liberty and justice. As soon as they have reached their objective, the Middle thrust the Low back into their old position of servitude, and themselves become the High-http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html

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Do androids dream of electric sheep?
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Yes, they can.

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