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networkn
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  #541637 6-Nov-2011 10:41
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Brendan:
networkn: LOL this is amazing.


I find it fascinating.

But I suspect our foci are quite different.

What would you be doing right now if there was no WINZ ?


Interesting... But I have a better one:

What would YOU be doing right now if there was no WINZ Mr Networkn?

We always hear that question aimed at beneficiaries, but we never hear an intelligent answer from those who criticize.

Enthrall me.
 


Well you seem wound up already so I imagine you are preparing your soapbox, however, you have appeared to have missed the point, and perhaps once you get it, you can drop the tude..

I was simply saying, that when you are given assistance like the type that WINZ provides, they are completely within their rights to ask you to meet simple prerequisites. Being asked to attend a seminar (Boring or not) in exchange for many thousands of dollars a year, so you can feed yourself, clothe yourself and put a roof over your head, is entirely within reasonable limits.

For him to have such an attitude such as "up yours WINZ" at being told he would need to attend regardless of his plumbing issue, leads me to believe he doesn't appreciate the help, in which case, perhaps he should find an alternative source of free money!

As for what I'd do if I had no money and no WINZ? Simple. Anything I needed to do to cover the bills, including but not limited to... Door to Door job searching for Lawn Mowing, gardening, digging ditches, milking cows, sweeping floors, delivering pamplets.

Brendan
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  #541712 6-Nov-2011 16:25
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jtbthatsme: Brendan I would think there's a good chance he'd be continuing to go to work each day making a decent amount extra in his pay packet for not having to spend his earnings paying taxes to support the 10000's (and I am being very generous with that figure) that are taking assistance from WINZ.


He would not have any extra money to spend. In fact, I think he would have less.

The OP has the cheek to complain that he couldn't get off a seminar to help him improve his job seeking skills when in his own words he lives in a small town with a plumber that manages to do his work solo which as pointed out above most likely if asked would gladly have been able to change to a more appropriate time where the OP had no need no conflict with an agency trying to help him further than they already are (you know paying for his very existence each week food, possibly rent, power, phone, internet and lets not forget his gaming too). It's quite funny he openly admitted as well he was available to go to the seminar in the end but chose not to as well.


This has nothing to do with my question and additionally you are presenting a strawman argument.

The OP states he does what is asked of him which is what take some time out of his day to improve his situation OMG the horror to think one can help themselves these days it's just tragic what the government forces people to do for handouts.


And ad-hominem.

You ask to be enthralled but where's your suggestion or solution didn't see or read it.


I have many solutions to many problems. I was not then asked for one of them. But since you now ask, I'd like some clarification: for what do you want a solution for, specifically?

So how about being thankful for the handout you get and appreciate those who are their each day trying to help you help yourself it's a real shame we live in a country where that's all a large chunk of those on assistance are doing just that though helping themselves at the taxpayers expense.


You took the time to write out a long message. It had one salient point to it, the rest consisted of ad-hominem attacks, character assassination, strawman arguments and unjustified assertions (specifically against me - someone you do not know but assume far too damn much about).

I would like you to apologize for your attitude.

Then we can get back to some civilized debate. Thanks.


 
 
 
 


Brendan
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  #541720 6-Nov-2011 16:42
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networkn:
Brendan:
networkn: LOL this is amazing.


I find it fascinating.

But I suspect our foci are quite different.

What would you be doing right now if there was no WINZ ?


Interesting... But I have a better one:

What would YOU be doing right now if there was no WINZ Mr Networkn?

We always hear that question aimed at beneficiaries, but we never hear an intelligent answer from those who criticize.

Enthrall me.
 


Well you seem wound up already so I imagine you are preparing your soapbox, however, you have appeared to have missed the point, and perhaps once you get it, you can drop the tude..


I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. I don't have an attitude, but I tend to respond in kind to those who do.

The bolding was there simply to draw attention - I have found that as people skim through the forums and continuously miss the main question and you bet that they'll ask it again a bit later.

I was simply saying, that when you are given assistance like the type that WINZ provides, they are completely within their rights to ask you to meet simple prerequisites. Being asked to attend a seminar (Boring or not) in exchange for many thousands of dollars a year, so you can feed yourself, clothe yourself and put a roof over your head, is entirely within reasonable limits.


This is quite so, and I agree - with in certain reasonable bounds.

The OP made the point however that he HAD attended this seminar several times already and there was no new material.

Do you approve of your tax payer dollars being spent on carbon-copies of previous seminars, or do you think it would be better spent on new material regularly? Is it your position that repetition of the same material for years is the best way to get a person a job? There is to be no progression?

Is it reasonable to expect a person to pay for a missed plumbers appointment in order to complete a seminar he has already completed many times? Does this not seem a stupid waste of everyones time and money to you?

For him to have such an attitude such as "up yours WINZ" at being told he would need to attend regardless of his plumbing issue, leads me to believe he doesn't appreciate the help, in which case, perhaps he should find an alternative source of free money!


That is an unjustified and reaching belief. But it is easily dealt with:

Mr Original Poster - if you have not gone already - do you appreciate the help you get from the taxpayer?

(we'll interpret no reply as he having not read the question).

As for what I'd do if I had no money and no WINZ? Simple. Anything I needed to do to cover the bills, including but not limited to... Door to Door job searching for Lawn Mowing, gardening, digging ditches, milking cows, sweeping floors, delivering pamplets.


While interesting, that is not what I asked. I'll clarify (not in bold so as not to risk offence):

What would you do (as a employed person) if there was no WINZ to support the unemployed? What would your expenses then be like? Would you be better off or worse?
 

networkn
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  #541727 6-Nov-2011 17:03
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Brendon, I won't answer all your questions as they serve no progression of the topic, however you asked:

Do you approve of your tax payer dollars being spent on carbon-copies of previous seminars, or do you think it would be better spent on new material regularly? Is it your position that repetition of the same material for years is the best way to get a person a job? There is to be no progression?

Is it reasonable to expect a person to pay for a missed plumbers appointment in order to complete a seminar he has already completed many times? Does this not seem a stupid waste of everyones time and money to you?

And my answer:

Yes I approve, not everyone starts these courses in the same timeframe, I don't believe they are exactly verbatim. Repetition has it's uses, and a regular seminar gets people out of the house, interacting with others which is something easily becomes habit to stay locked in a house not doing anything which erodes attitude and desire. The longer you are unemployed the worse your mental state for 95% of people. The longer it goes on for, the less likely to find a job. Working (Even for free) is good for the soul. It's necessary I believe for most people to work for their own mental and physical well being.

As for what I would do if WINZ doesn't exist? Not sure, but it does exist, it has a purpose and so long as it's not abused (Which the OP appears want to do to some extent), then I have no issue with the tax I pay, going toward it. I believe that getting it shouldn't be a right, but acknowledged as a priviledge, and anything reasonable (as determined by the agency) requested of someone recieving funds, should be adhered to with some degree of willingness.

As for the assertion he would be out of pocket, it's hard to believe this to be the case since he knows he has the seminars each week and could easily have told the guy to come another day.

Do you have any idea how many people try to get out of these seminars? (One of the posters in this very thread admits benefit fraud). People use any excuse..



jtbthatsme
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  #541834 6-Nov-2011 22:57
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Brendan other than using your name at the start of my post and asking where your suggestions or solutions were did I even refer to you. This thread is not about you it was about the OP having a go at a social agency over their decision to not want to allow him to miss attendance at a seminar he would have had plenty of prior notification about.

There is no need for an apology as I have said nothing offensive to you at all and find it amazing that you've taken the tone you did.

Like I said the benefit system is not there to be a hand out they can and should (as should we as taxpayers) expect there to be terms and conditions to be met to get it and those who choose to not meet these should simiply not get it.

There's plenty of people out there taking the system for granted and I can assure you it's in the 10's of thousands who do it on a regular basis I think WINZ make it too easy the OP obviously think they're not as flexible as they could be but you know what that's ok as I have my opinion, he has his and you obviously have yours and we're all entitled to it.

Brendan
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  #541840 6-Nov-2011 23:45
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jtbthatsme: Brendan other than using your name at the start of my post and asking where your suggestions or solutions were did I even refer to you. This thread is not about you it was about the OP having a go at a social agency over their decision to not want to allow him to miss attendance at a seminar he would have had plenty of prior notification about.


You originally said (emphasis mine):

So how about being thankful for the handout you get and appreciate those who are their each day trying to help you help yourself it's a real shame we live in a country where that's all a large chunk of those on assistance are doing just that though helping themselves at the taxpayers expense.


The message containing that quote was a message you sent to me in response to a message I sent you. You refer to me; you assert I have been given a hand out. To attempt to claim otherwise is dishonest.

You did indeed refer to me. Your only other option is to admit your wording was faulty and apologize for the confusion.

There is no need for an apology as I have said nothing offensive to you at all and find it amazing that you've taken the tone you did.


See above.

Like I said the benefit system is not there to be a hand out they can and should (as should we as taxpayers) expect there to be terms and conditions to be met to get it and those who choose to not meet these should simiply not get it.


He met these terms and conditions. He was annoyed that they were draconian and inflexible. Your point is moot.

There's plenty of people out there taking the system for granted and I can assure you it's in the 10's of thousands who do it on a regular basis I think WINZ make it too easy the OP obviously think they're not as flexible as they could be but you know what that's ok as I have my opinion, he has his and you obviously have yours and we're all entitled to it.


Your opinion is a collection of unsubstantiated assertions, strawman arguments, and ad-hominem attacks.

The system IS granted; it is a guaranteed under the Human Rights Act and the Social Security Act. It is not a privilege or a allowance - it is a RIGHT. It is the LAW.

I have noticed a change already however: no longer are there people in this thread beating up on a man for expressing his objections to the inflexible bureaucratic edifice that is WINZ. Said people are now being a lot more civil and a lot more careful as to what they say. 

I think we can all appreciate that.

I think we are all better than that. If we were not, we'd be politicians.

(I have also noticed an un-necessary increase in the use of my name at the start of a reply; this is what politicians also do when they are 'caught out' in a debate).

jtbthatsme
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  #541843 7-Nov-2011 00:19
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The confusion is yours totally I was not referring to you about handouts you receive as you yourself pointed out I don't know you so why the hell would I make a assumption about you receiving any they were a generalisation directed at the OP mainly and then as a overall generalisation.

As for my comments about numbers you are now making the assumption I don't know what I am talking about when you are very much mistaken you see I work in the field of benefit fraud detection and prevention so I do know the numbers love to share some of them with you here but as this is a open forum available to the public it would be a breach of my workplaces code of conduct to actually put those in somewhere like this but one thing I will say when I said I was being generous about the number 10's of thousands I was not joking.

The act is law you are correct in saying that but getting a benefit is not a right at all otherwise there would be no qualifying criteria. When you sign on for a benefit you agree to terms and conditions it is a binding contract which points out quite clearly failure of you the recipient to notify of changes in your circumstances and or failure to meet the terms and conditions of the said contract can result in penalties, sanctions if you don't like them you don't have to use the service provided by WINZ. If you are using them then maybe you should be thankful we live in a country that provides for you in whatever way they do as many countries do not.

As I said this thread is not about you no one here is trying to have a go at you I am sticking up for something I believe is actually over generous in it's assistance of many NZ'ers and that I feel people should be greatful for the assistance they get and not feel restricted or hard done by that they too have to play a part in their receipt of said assistance.

I have a opinion i've shared it just like the OP did I'm not going to bother replying again here i've said all I need to and I certainly will not apologise for anything you have taken the wrong way.

 
 
 
 


Brendan
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  #541844 7-Nov-2011 00:20
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networkn: Brendon, I won't answer all your questions as they serve no progression of the topic, however you asked:

Do you approve of your tax payer dollars being spent on carbon-copies of previous seminars, or do you think it would be better spent on new material regularly? Is it your position that repetition of the same material for years is the best way to get a person a job? There is to be no progression?

Is it reasonable to expect a person to pay for a missed plumbers appointment in order to complete a seminar he has already completed many times? Does this not seem a stupid waste of everyones time and money to you?


And my answer:

Yes I approve, not everyone starts these courses in the same timeframe, I don't believe they are exactly verbatim. Repetition has it's uses, and a regular seminar gets people out of the house, interacting with others which is something easily becomes habit to stay locked in a house not doing anything which erodes attitude and desire. The longer you are unemployed the worse your mental state for 95% of people. The longer it goes on for, the less likely to find a job. Working (Even for free) is good for the soul. It's necessary I believe for most people to work for their own mental and physical well being.


Thank you.

As theories go, yours is on the weak side (sorry), and you make a few to many assumptions for my taste. I will offer a different theory:

New material is used each month. Job seekers are not only being kept current with fluctuating local trends, but are also helped improve their skills with the basics: improving their reading and math if necessary, drivers license, or perhaps even helped with some tertiary correspondence study. Some might even be helped with guidance starting their own businesses.
Long term unemployed would find encouragement in the fact that effort and co-ordination was being spent on them; increasing their skill level will also help.

'Soul'? What is that? There is no such thing. Feeling wanted and a part of the community is what people need; not some metaphysical sermon. I will assume you meant it metaphorically.

On a related note: it should be recognized that people who are on the dole long term have a high incidence of mental instability, social disabilities, and abuse problems. Until these issues are addressed properly and scientifically, no progress with them can be made. That our 'leadership' routinely ignores these important factors in favor of Sabre rattling only illustrates their complete inability to deal with real problems.

As for what I would do if WINZ doesn't exist? Not sure, but it does exist, it has a purpose and so long as it's not abused (Which the OP appears want to do to some extent), then I have no issue with the tax I pay, going toward it. I believe that getting it shouldn't be a right, but acknowledged as a priviledge, and anything reasonable (as determined by the agency) requested of someone recieving funds, should be adhered to with some degree of willingness.


Slippery slope there, I'm afraid.

And what happens when they don't adhere to your rules? You take the money away I guess? What do you think these people will then turn to, and how much will that cost society?

Opinion:
If there was no WINZ, the costs to the rest of us would sky rocket. Suddenly, you would have a whole list of insurance expenses jump through the roof. If you think taxes are high - wait till you pay the for-profit insurance industry.

Why? Well, crime rates would jump as thousands of people turn to crime to support themselves. It'd become an industry all of it's own, with no controls over it. Why, it'd be just like the USA or Sera Leone...

And so you hire more cops. Well, that's more taxes to pay for them right there...

And then you will need more Court houses to deal with the extra criminals.

And more prisons. I was told it costs about $2000/week per prisoner alone.

And still the costs would mount higher, as we get more and more multi generational families who know nothing other than crime. A shifting population of gangs and syndicates fuelled by alcohol, violence and drugs.

Just like the USA.

It looks like WINZ is a bargain.

As for the assertion he would be out of pocket, it's hard to believe this to be the case since he knows he has the seminars each week and could easily have told the guy to come another day.


He obviously made the serious mistake of believing WINZ was reasonable and capable of re-scheduling a seminar he had already completed.

I guess he made the mistake of expecting some respect and compassion.

He probably didn't think he would be treated like a criminal missing his parole appointment.

Do you have any idea how many people try to get out of these seminars? (One of the posters in this very thread admits benefit fraud). People use any excuse..


That says more about the pointless ineffectual nature of the seminars than it does the people attending them.



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  #541885 7-Nov-2011 07:51
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Folks, I'll lock this discussion now. I feel this is going on a "slippery slope" to personal (already is in some aspects), so if you feel strongly against this let me know via PM.





 

 

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