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  Reply # 539275 30-Oct-2011 13:45
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Byrned: From what I remember of this, one of the sticking points that the union is demanding is the right to veto any change put forward by Qantas.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/qantas-engineer-strike-set-to-disrupt-flights-20110509-1efva.html


That was is just mind boggling. What right do employees have to demand that unless they are management!? 

Good for Q in the move to shutdown, it's obvious the unions will blink first.
 
Even better that the board and management team aren't paid during that time, really shoves it home.
 

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  Reply # 539286 30-Oct-2011 14:11
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sbiddle:
Linuxluver:
GeekGuy: Didnt the CEO just get a pay increase to $5 million and then wanted to cut staff levels ?


Yeah...Playing tough guy on a fat pay cheque.

Qantas want to cut the wages and conditions of their staff. The staff, understandably, don't want to slide backward.

In the US, you now have regional airline pilots being paid not much more than counter staff at McDonalds. The union know where this is heading.   



Maybe all the pilots on A$536000 per year (as reported in the media this week) who have had a $40,000 increase should be sharing some of that around.

The average Qantas A380 pilot also gets $415,000 per year.

Do you think these are reasonable wages for a pilot, especially with all the perks they get on top? Qantas have some of the best paid crew and conditions in the airline world. 



Pilots flying 12 hour flights in $100M aircraft carrying 550 passengers.

How much is too much? I dunno. But I know $15.60 / hour is too low....  




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  Reply # 539293 30-Oct-2011 14:46
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Linuxluver:
sbiddle:
Linuxluver:
GeekGuy: Didnt the CEO just get a pay increase to $5 million and then wanted to cut staff levels ?


Yeah...Playing tough guy on a fat pay cheque.

Qantas want to cut the wages and conditions of their staff. The staff, understandably, don't want to slide backward.

In the US, you now have regional airline pilots being paid not much more than counter staff at McDonalds. The union know where this is heading.   



Maybe all the pilots on A$536000 per year (as reported in the media this week) who have had a $40,000 increase should be sharing some of that around.

The average Qantas A380 pilot also gets $415,000 per year.

Do you think these are reasonable wages for a pilot, especially with all the perks they get on top? Qantas have some of the best paid crew and conditions in the airline world. 



Pilots flying 12 hour flights in $100M aircraft carrying 550 passengers.

How much is too much? I dunno. But I know $15.60 / hour is too low....  


And are there any Qantas pilots being paid $15.60 per hour? 

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  Reply # 539296 30-Oct-2011 15:07
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sbiddle:
Linuxluver:
sbiddle:
Linuxluver:
GeekGuy: Didnt the CEO just get a pay increase to $5 million and then wanted to cut staff levels ?


Yeah...Playing tough guy on a fat pay cheque.

Qantas want to cut the wages and conditions of their staff. The staff, understandably, don't want to slide backward.

In the US, you now have regional airline pilots being paid not much more than counter staff at McDonalds. The union know where this is heading.   



Maybe all the pilots on A$536000 per year (as reported in the media this week) who have had a $40,000 increase should be sharing some of that around.

The average Qantas A380 pilot also gets $415,000 per year.

Do you think these are reasonable wages for a pilot, especially with all the perks they get on top? Qantas have some of the best paid crew and conditions in the airline world. 



Pilots flying 12 hour flights in $100M aircraft carrying 550 passengers.

How much is too much? I dunno. But I know $15.60 / hour is too low....  


And are there any Qantas pilots being paid $15.60 per hour? 


Must be true if Linuxluver claims so; mustn't it? Laughing.

And so that means that not only are they under paid but they are overworked too as there are 8,760 hours in a year (365x24) and pilots work 26,602 hours in a year ($415,000/$15.60). Disgusting how these companies exploit the working classes.

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  Reply # 539310 30-Oct-2011 16:54
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It should also be pointed out that this is a lockout initiated by Qantas management not the unions.

There had been two strikes and threats of others but the complete shutdown was initiated by management. Just thought it should be mentioned.

Edited to two strikes not one. 

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  Reply # 539343 30-Oct-2011 20:39
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Bus / Taxi driver analogy is not really a valid comparison on a number of levels.
In the most simplistic terms a bus accident is rarely catastrophic.
But you could also argue that roading networks are far more hazardous than airways ones...

Still I believe that management have to enforce their role as the decision makers for the company. Business is about staying in business and allowing the enterprise to thrive, and grow, and keep staff employed.

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  Reply # 539347 30-Oct-2011 20:48
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oxnsox:  Business is about staying in business and allowing the enterprise to thrive, and grow, and keep staff employed.


Many times I have seen it argued that business is not about keeping staff employed, growing anything nor about thrive, but simply about getting the best return for the shareholder and best figures in the next quarterly report.

Staff are nothing more than a tool to get the job of generating shareholder return done.  If hiring someone new at a better rate will improve shareholder return and value then that is the focus.  If removing staff and getting a new tool that does the job of those staff will get better shareholder return then that's what gets done.








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  Reply # 539353 30-Oct-2011 21:00
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Businesses exist to make money, otherwise why would you do it?

Some people are less money focused than others, but ultimately financial gain is the end game.

Unions have held too much power for too long and finally a business has said enough.

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  Reply # 539377 30-Oct-2011 22:16
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networkn: Businesses exist to make money, otherwise why would you do it?

Some people are less money focused than others, but ultimately financial gain is the end game.

Unions have held too much power for too long and finally a business has said enough.


You'd think that, however you're view point is solely that of a company director

(not criticising, I agree fully, and am in the same boat) 

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  Reply # 539379 30-Oct-2011 22:23
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Hi There!

No I felt that way as staff of a company too. If you can't make money why bother doing it? I sound horribly capitalist, but that is the way of the world. Money isn't the most important thing in the world to be, I have no desire to be a billionaire, nor make millions in profits, so long as I am comfortable and enjoying what I do, and doing a good job in the eyes of the customers, then I am good. However, if I couldn't make money doing it, I wouldn't do it.



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  Reply # 539381 30-Oct-2011 22:24
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Plenty of ill informed comment on this thread.  Ding Bat is one of the few that comes close to making any sense.

Yes, Australian pilots are better paid than pilots in New Zealand and some other parts of the world but before we go picking on the "bad over paid" Aussie pilots perhaps there should be comparisons made with salaries in other industries.  I think you might find electricians, mechanics, doctors etc in Aussie are much better paid than their New Zealand counterparts, why pick on the pilots.

The comparison of pilots salaries in the US to a McDonalds worker wasn't about Captains salaries, it was about Co-Pilot or First Officer salaries at the regionals.  Some of these guys' and girls cannot afford to live at their rostered base at least not in what most of us would consider normally acceptable accommodation.  This mean a long commute or sub standard accommodation neither of which is conducive to being on top you of your game when things go pear shape.  Some of you might have heard of the Colgan accident in the US.

While preserving conditions to prevent a Colgan situation happening in Australia, the dispute at least from the pilots perspective is centred on retaining jobs in Australia, it has nothing to do with unions demanding the right to unilaterally veto Qantas management actions.  Qantas is trying to offshore as many jobs as possible which eventually means Qantas aircraft being based outside of Australia being maintained and crewed by foreigners. 

Where is all this heading, take a look at the merchant navy and see what's happened there.  

Does the word "Rena" ring a bell to anyone?  

 

P.S. The salary figures being quoted might be an average for the A380 but as has been pointed out these guys are at the top of the seniority list which is where the highest salaries are.  I don't know what the average across the board is but it's well short of whats being quoted.  

Remember the salary that's paid reflects very extensive training and experience as well as the fact that these guys are managing an asset worth many millions of dollars and the level to which they manage that asset has a large bearing on the companies bottom line.




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  Reply # 539384 30-Oct-2011 22:30
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techno. I think the problem is the way they are going about it. Holding an entire national carrier to ransom is an unacceptable way to behave, and unions have been at it for years.

At the end of the day, if you aren't happy with your pay, talk to your boss, ask what you can do to make yourself more valuable and then decide if the answer is acceptable. If it's not, move on, someones loss, depends really, but at the end of the day, constant work strikes are rubbish.

My wife is a doctor, and when the doctors went on strike over working conditions and pay, she wouldn't strike, which got her spat on by another doctor (a one off extreme example). My wife could earn 3-4 times what she could in NZ, in Australia and it's our choice to stay here and raise our family, where we have less household income and better quality of life (in our opinion).

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  Reply # 539388 30-Oct-2011 22:45
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networkn: techno. I think the problem is the way they are going about it. Holding an entire national carrier to ransom is an unacceptable way to behave, and unions have been at it for years.

At the end of the day, if you aren't happy with your pay, talk to your boss, ask what you can do to make yourself more valuable and then decide if the answer is acceptable. If it's not, move on, someones loss, depends really, but at the end of the day, constant work strikes are rubbish.

My wife is a doctor, and when the doctors went on strike over working conditions and pay, she wouldn't strike, which got her spat on by another doctor (a one off extreme example). My wife could earn 3-4 times what she could in NZ, in Australia and it's our choice to stay here and raise our family, where we have less household income and better quality of life (in our opinion).


The only ones doing the ransoming here is management, and I agree it is totally unacceptable.  The pilots and other workers have tried to negotiate without success, in fact the pilots haven't been on strike.

Your second statement shows that you don't understand the career path of a pilot.  Career progression is largely seniority based, once they have a bit of time in at an airline and have moved up to Captain moving on is not an option. For many it means starting at the bottom somewhere else, going back to a junior First Officers pay, a salary where they can possibly no longer provide for their family.

 

PS How do you suggest the pilots and other groups go about their negotiations when company deliberately fobs then off?




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  Reply # 539389 30-Oct-2011 22:46
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Technofreak:

...The comparison of pilots salaries in the US to a McDonalds worker wasn't about Captains salaries, it was about Co-Pilot or First Officer salaries at the regionals.


You can relax. First Officers on regional airlines also have hourly rates that are multiples of those of mcDonalds workers (I am assuming you refering to counter staff as I suspect not many First Officers earn as much as senior McDonald's managers who are also "workers"). I am aware that USA ALPA have promulgated the matters you say, they may be correct for crew who are not rostered for many hours but that is a surplus of pilots issue not a pay rate one.

Technofreak:  Does the word "Rena" ring a bell to anyone?


Yes it does ring a bell with me - in the terms that you say it, it means that yellow men and woman are not as competent to crew ships as white ones are. A claim I do not agree with and have in fact the experience to know that it is not true. Perhaps surprisingly to some, they can fly planes pretty well too.
 
It is the register the ship is on not the nationality of the crew members nor their pay that determines the level and  standing of the qualifications required. Rena is on the Liberian Register of Ships which is in fact a STCW (Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping) Convention white listed register just as is the NZ Register, for example.
    

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  Reply # 539390 30-Oct-2011 22:47
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techno: no, it's the unions holding the entire nation to ransom.

Also are you claiming a captain at Qantas would need to start near the bottom at AirNZ? I don't believe that for a single second. You might be first mate for 3 months or so but no chance they get a massive degrade in rank.

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