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  Reply # 574264 27-Jan-2012 23:34
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Brendan:
All that is needed for complex life is time.

Something the universe has already had a lot of so far.





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  Reply # 574267 27-Jan-2012 23:40
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Brendan:
They have already found some of the basic elements of RNA are self assembling - e.g. life is a result of chemistry found all over the universe.


LOL, "self-assembling" is an interesting term. That makes it sound like placing the chemicals in the right right milieu is enough. At present, "self-assembling" RNA is the equivalent of a "self-assembled" cake. If you mix the chemicals together in the right sequence you produce RNA. If you don't get the recipe right then you don't get RNA.




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  Reply # 574270 27-Jan-2012 23:44
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Hammerer:
Brendan:
They have already found some of the basic elements of RNA are self assembling - e.g. life is a result of chemistry found all over the universe.


LOL, "self-assembling" is an interesting term. That makes it sound like placing the chemicals in the right right milieu is enough. At present, "self-assembling" RNA is the equivalent of a "self-assembled" cake. If you mix the chemicals together in the right sequence you produce RNA. If you don't get the recipe right then you don't get RNA.


That's right, if you shake a bag of Lego for long enough, you will get a pirate ship, complete with the little cannons on the decks and the captain waving his cutlass.

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  Reply # 574274 28-Jan-2012 00:26
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Hammerer:
Brendan:
They have already found some of the basic elements of RNA are self assembling - e.g. life is a result of chemistry found all over the universe.


LOL, "self-assembling" is an interesting term. That makes it sound like placing the chemicals in the right right milieu is enough. At present, "self-assembling" RNA is the equivalent of a "self-assembled" cake. If you mix the chemicals together in the right sequence you produce RNA. If you don't get the recipe right then you don't get RNA.


No.

Your 'at present' is out of date.

More recent experiments have found that certain nucleotides can spontaneously form from pre-existing molecules - all made by common, un-sophisticated chemical reactions. Some of these form half the nucleotide, and others form the other half. It can then combine. Research still goes on to complete the picture for all RNA nucleotides, but this is progress.

It is not a matter of just tossing it all into a bowl and adding energy. It's a progression of different simple mixtures.

Once the first replicant - or autocatalyst - was generated, natural selection could then play a role. The entire process is not unlike a cellular automata, as is far from requiring complexity from the outset. 

As i say, the process was not unique to physics or to this world, and we see many of the same conditions elsewhere in the universe. There does not seem to have been any statistically unlikely events occur.

Anyway: I am not prepared to debate such details as I am no expert on this matter; however it seems neither are any others here.

I welcome some published molecular biologist to declare itself however....
 

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  Reply # 574277 28-Jan-2012 00:32
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Skolink:
Hammerer:
Brendan:
They have already found some of the basic elements of RNA are self assembling - e.g. life is a result of chemistry found all over the universe.


LOL, "self-assembling" is an interesting term. That makes it sound like placing the chemicals in the right right milieu is enough. At present, "self-assembling" RNA is the equivalent of a "self-assembled" cake. If you mix the chemicals together in the right sequence you produce RNA. If you don't get the recipe right then you don't get RNA.


That's right, if you shake a bag of Lego for long enough, you will get a pirate ship, complete with the little cannons on the decks and the captain waving his cutlass.


What you are describing is a completely random process producing a fantastical result.

This in no way resembles the deterministic multi-stage process that is proposed by science.


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  Reply # 574279 28-Jan-2012 00:33
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I believe life of another form is 100% out there.

I believe the chance of us ever coming into contact with other life forms is infinitely close to zero.




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  Reply # 574303 28-Jan-2012 08:36
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Brendan: What you are describing is a completely random process producing a fantastical result. 
Yes, that is a good description of how I view evolution, it seemed to me that people believe in magic. I'll be interested to read about these latest experiments though (likely to be slow at work next week).
Edit: typo

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  Reply # 574321 28-Jan-2012 09:38
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DravidDavid: I wouldn't doubt life outside of Earth for a second.

Ancient alien theory isn't totally out of believable bounds, although heavily reliant on interpretation.  I'm looking forward to future voyages to distant planets.  You never know what you might find.

An ancient Mayan temple perhaps?


By ancient alien theory do you mean the idea that life may have been seeded by meteorites or the  thoroughly debunked hilarity the likes of which its played on History Channel? (Von Daniken, Lloyd Pye et al.)




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  Reply # 574329 28-Jan-2012 10:04
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So if you use The Drake Equation, and plug in some realistic numbers - assuming a civilization that becomes technologically advanced enough to broadcast radio waves (to become detectable) might last only several hundred years before a lack resources cause a collapse (plenty of examples through our own history of this).

Based on that wild assumption, at any one time in our galaxy there might be around 100 civilizations (some say as little as 25) technologically advanced enough to broadcast radio waves. Consider how big our galaxy is - 100000-120000 light-years across.. Time is not on your side, detecting something else out there while we are around? Not that great.

Short of getting lucky and discovering a Stargate, someone else turning up and nicely giving us the technology or making a breakthrough with quantum physics allowing us to move about or communicate  about the universe somewhat faster than the speed of light... Again, not that great. We're pretty much stuck on a rock in the middle of nowhere :)

My 2c worth on the subject.



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  Reply # 574332 28-Jan-2012 10:11
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Skolink:  it seemed to me that people believe in magic.


Yes, they all themselves creationists. 




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  Reply # 574378 28-Jan-2012 12:33
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BurningBeard:
DravidDavid: I wouldn't doubt life outside of Earth for a second.

Ancient alien theory isn't totally out of believable bounds, although heavily reliant on interpretation.  I'm looking forward to future voyages to distant planets.  You never know what you might find.

An ancient Mayan temple perhaps?


By ancient alien theory do you mean the idea that life may have been seeded by meteorites or the  thoroughly debunked hilarity the likes of which its played on History Channel? (Von Daniken, Lloyd Pye et al.)


A bit of both actually.  I try not to buy too much in to what the History Channel says, since its all for entertainment purposes and very heavily one sided.  But I believe there may be an element of truth to it.  I'm not sure where you found a debunked version...But I'm interested in its source if you happen to have it handy!

The whole idea that an ancient race/ET and their technology where misinterpreted and labeled a god with magic or powers has merit in my opinion.  But it could be totally crazy, so the source on the debunked version would be a nice thing to read/watch when I get the chance.





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  Reply # 574391 28-Jan-2012 13:19
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The Milky Way alone has perhaps 10 BILLION potentially habitable planets.
The Universe has perhaps 170 BILLION galaxies.

Likelihood that our planet is the ONLY one to evolve live = 0.

Unfortunately with no FTL travel on the horizon, our chance of meeting ET is probably also 0.

Still, IMHO we should try! Start with the Moon, then on to Mars. Then to the Jovians. Perhaps I read too much SF.
I can only dream it would happen in my lifetime!

Cheers,
Joseph

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  Reply # 574399 28-Jan-2012 14:00
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A creationist on Geekzone?!

Evolution is merely logic. If something reproduces and survives, then more of it exists. So things that are better at reproducing and surviving exist more. This happens with chemicals, prokaryotes, single-celled eukaryotes, multicellular organisms, ideas, cultures, religions - anything.

Most random changes are negative - if the change doesn't help reproduction or survival then the thing 'dies' out, but on the rare occasion the mutation is beneficial then that organism will be able to outcompete the other organisms. This is evolution.

But, if you want to believe it's all due to the command of some angry bearded Arab man who lives in the Sky from a few thousand years ago that's okay. There's enough evidence out there, but it's obvious you don't want to know. Give your Elim minister a double tithe this Sunday for me okay?

Personally, I think there's definitely going to be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The universe is huge. I don't know if we'll ever get to see any though.

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  Reply # 574414 28-Jan-2012 14:43
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Brendan:
Hammerer:
Brendan:
They have already found some of the basic elements of RNA are self assembling - e.g. life is a result of chemistry found all over the universe.


LOL, "self-assembling" is an interesting term. That makes it sound like placing the chemicals in the right right milieu is enough. At present, "self-assembling" RNA is the equivalent of a "self-assembled" cake. If you mix the chemicals together in the right sequence you produce RNA. If you don't get the recipe right then you don't get RNA.


No.

Your 'at present' is out of date.

More recent experiments have found that certain nucleotides can spontaneously form from pre-existing molecules - all made by common, un-sophisticated chemical reactions. Some of these form half the nucleotide, and others form the other half. It can then combine. Research still goes on to complete the picture for all RNA nucleotides, but this is progress.

It is not a matter of just tossing it all into a bowl and adding energy. It's a progression of different simple mixtures.

Once the first replicant - or autocatalyst - was generated, natural selection could then play a role. The entire process is not unlike a cellular automata, as is far from requiring complexity from the outset. 

As i say, the process was not unique to physics or to this world, and we see many of the same conditions elsewhere in the universe. There does not seem to have been any statistically unlikely events occur.

Anyway: I am not prepared to debate such details as I am no expert on this matter; however it seems neither are any others here.

I welcome some published molecular biologist to declare itself however....
 


I think that you've misunderstood what I was saying. Smile

I know that there are cake recipes that work by "just tossing it all into a bowl", mixing (I had to add that), "and adding energy". However, most cake recipes require a multi-stage process to develop key features. I used the cake recipe analogy because that's what most people can relate to. The concept of cellular automata is useful but it is much more difficult for most people to understand.

As you say RNA formation is "a progression of different simple mixtures." Many researchers have found out they couldn't form RNA if they didn't get the steps right. Too me that sounds just like the analogy of making a cake.

I do agree with you about not being an expert but that doesn't mean that we can't understand what is going on amongst the experts. Nor that we should suspend any critical analysis.




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  Reply # 574416 28-Jan-2012 14:52
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tristanb: A creationist on Geekzone?!

Evolution is merely logic. If something reproduces and survives, then more of it exists. So things that are better at reproducing and surviving exist more. This happens with chemicals, prokaryotes, single-celled eukaryotes, multicellular organisms, ideas, cultures, religions - anything.

Most random changes are negative - if the change doesn't help reproduction or survival then the thing 'dies' out, but on the rare occasion the mutation is beneficial then that organism will be able to outcompete the other organisms. This is evolution.

But, if you want to believe it's all due to the command of some angry bearded Arab man who lives in the Sky from a few thousand years ago that's okay. There's enough evidence out there, but it's obvious you don't want to know. Give your Elim minister a double tithe this Sunday for me okay?

Personally, I think there's definitely going to be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The universe is huge. I don't know if we'll ever get to see any though.


I would have liked to see more logic in your comments. Are you that unsure of yourself that you have to mock others. Whether you're correct or not about what they believe, it's not clear whether you're aiming your abuse at Moslems or Christians or both.




Survival of the fittest • 68kg HP Color LaserJet behemoth • 38kg HP Color LaserJet giant • 82kg HP Netserver leviathan - Extinct 2015 • 61kg HP Netserver brontosaurus - Extinct 2010 • 32kg Compaq Proliant goliath - Extinct 2010 • 31kg 21" IBM CRT gargantua - Extinct 2010


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