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68 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 50744 2-Nov-2006 09:22
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Wireless services can't be compared generally.

Datacaps are pretty rare internationally, they don't work and the telcos are simply going to have to work out other ways of doing things because limits don't and won't work, video isn't going away.

This isn't a technological or cost issue, it's a pricing paradigm issue.

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Master Geek


  Reply # 50746 2-Nov-2006 09:44
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antigrav: I dont think you know what you are talking about....


Also many plans in the U.S. have unlimited downloads but they all have a fair use policy

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Reply # 50751 2-Nov-2006 10:13
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antigrav - it is bizarre comparing us to Hong Kong where 40,000 people can live in one apartment building. Much easier and cheaper to terminate fibre to provide high speed internet to a large number of apartment dwellers than to dig up all the roads in Timaru.





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  Reply # 50755 2-Nov-2006 10:23
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antigrav: ...
Datacaps are pretty rare internationally, they don't work and the telcos are simply going to have to work out other ways of doing things because limits don't and won't work, video isn't going away.

This isn't a technological or cost issue, it's a pricing paradigm issue.


When I lived in the UK (I moved back to NZ a year ago), unlimited plans were the norm, but looking at plans nowadays - UK ISPs Comparison there does seem to be a trend towards capped or traffic managed plans.  I would assume this is because more people are using more bandwidth with the popularity of Youtube-like services and P2P downloading (people in the UK are annoyed at having to wait 6 months to a year for shows in the US to screen locally, too - so many use P2P).

However, just a quick look down this list shows that packages in the UK are far better than those offered in NZ and with far fewer caps or restrictions.  Xtra's restrictions are a lot harsher than what is normal overseas, but to say datacaps are rare overseas is untrue.

Broadband customers in NZ have the same problem as in many other areas - the small, isolated population means that there are fewer businesses fighting for customers - leading to less competition and so monopolies or cartels (petrol prices, anyone???) emerge.



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Reply # 50762 2-Nov-2006 10:33
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There are some bizarre ideas here, which leads to my next question... Do you smoke it or take it in the arm?

Anyway I believe this thread started about somebody starting a ridiculous petition against Telecom. So if we could bring ourselves back to the topic at hand, that would be fantastic.

To all those who seem to be wanting Telecom to give you something for nothing... you do realise that use of the Telecom wireless hotspots is free till the end of 2007. Now stop complaining.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 50766 2-Nov-2006 10:54
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Yes, in many ways it has more to do with greedy monopolies (too greedy for their own good) than true cost.

If Telecom had any sense it would have years and years ago provided Kiwi's with fast and cheap uncapped broadband (Not cared if it cost them a little at the time), kept an absolute monopoly and kept in the governments favour, we could have the highest broadband penetration (because of our isolation and love of the internet and new technology, New Zealand was doing extremely well with dialup penetration) and Telecom with pretty much 100% of the market, but they had to push it until even the government finally got sick of it.

Also there are plenty of plans overseas that don't have datacaps, I think NZ is one of the few if not the only country that doesn't have an uncapped plan (forgetting about 256kbit) except for the new capped in prime time only plans. (And WiMAX and any other technology trials, Australia has also had datacaps but is moving away from them)

Of which only one is not seriously crippled outside of prime time too, it's not just p2p they are slowing down.

Ok, saying Datacaps are rare was a mistake, what I meant was that there is an abundance of unlimited plans and very few countries that don't have a decent uncapped broadband plan, it is rare for the main (best) adsl and cable broadband plans in other countries to have data caps.

And yes some will feel the pinch but no data caps don't work and I do know what I'm speaking about when I say that, no New Zealand isn't 'Leading the way' by having datacaps ;)

BTW I just realized one neat advantage of Woosh over Xtra, with Go Large you would need to stay up till midnight to start a big download, not as hard as waiting up till 2:00am with Ihug but sometimes you may just want to hit the hay, but with Woosh you don't care if it uses up your remaining peak data allowance because you'll be asleep when your connection is most temporarily limited to dialup speeds (till midnight), so you can start large downloads and head off to bed. (providing others aren't going to be trying to use it at high speeds before midnight)


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Reply # 50776 2-Nov-2006 11:46
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antigrav: Yes, in many ways it has more to do with greedy monopolies (too greedy for their own good) than true cost.


So wait, all business are greedy because they want to maximise their profits?? Please....

If Telecom had any sense it would have years and years ago provided Kiwi's with fast and cheap uncapped broadband (Not cared if it cost them a little at the time), kept an absolute monopoly and kept in the governments favour, we could have the highest broadband penetration (because of our isolation and love of the internet and new technology, New Zealand was doing extremely well with dialup penetration) and Telecom with pretty much 100% of the market, but they had to push it until even the government finally got sick of it.


As many users here have tried time and time again to be explain to people like yourself that believe no data caps are a right, data cost money, it cost to maintain a network and more importantly a majority of users do not go over their monthly data caps, it's a small majority who use up their data caps, and they should be made to pay for that usage. Why should someone who uses the internet every second day, effectively pay for the guy next door who downloads 100GB in a month?

The other thing is, as widely reported, their is more money in dialup internet connections that broadband...

Also there are plenty of plans overseas that don't have datacaps, I think NZ is one of the few if not the only country that doesn't have an uncapped plan (forgetting about 256kbit) except for the new capped in prime time only plans. (And WiMAX and any other technology trials, Australia has also had datacaps but is moving away from them)

Of which only one is not seriously crippled outside of prime time too, it's not just p2p they are slowing down.



In real terms we don’t have data caps, just 'high speed' data caps, you can download as much as you like, as I'm sure you will notice that many ISPs will not stop you using the internet , but slow you down. So in effect you can still download. Again you are asking for a product that will not benefit a majority, and while their maybe a place for such a product the question will be at what price?

Ok, saying Datacaps are rare was a mistake, what I meant was that there is an abundance of unlimited plans and very few countries that don't have a decent uncapped broadband plan, it is rare for the main (best) adsl and cable broadband plans in other countries to have data caps.


High Speed data caps support the user pays system. I know I will be shot down by many here, but I agree with them.

And yes some will feel the pinch but no data caps don't work and I do know what I'm speaking about when I say that, no New Zealand isn't 'Leading the way' by having datacaps ;)


Its not always about 'Leading the way', but about what the customer wants, and large majority don’t want to pay for an unlimited service as their usage does not justify it. In that sense I don’t think you quite understand the ideals behind business decisions. A company such as Telecom does not make the rules up to annoy customers, but to provide them a service or product at a price that is fair to both the customer and the provider.

BTW I just realized one neat advantage of Woosh over Xtra, with Go Large you would need to stay up till midnight to start a big download, not as hard as waiting up till 2:00am with Ihug but sometimes you may just want to hit the hay, but with Woosh you don't care if it uses up your remaining peak data allowance because you'll be asleep when your connection is most temporarily limited to dialup speeds (till midnight), so you can start large downloads and head off to bed. (providing others aren't going to be trying to use it at high speeds before midnight)




Or you could just use a download management tool.....

And welcome to Geekzone Smile

nzbnw








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Reply # 50777 2-Nov-2006 11:46
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I really get annoyed at people who make claims without first doing their homework.

iiNet do have caps on their ADSL2+ network in Australia. They have peak/off peak quotas and do NOT have any unlimited plans. For example:
120GB (60/60 peak/offpeak) @$129.00 plus a further 34.95 for a phone line. Without a phone line from iiNet 40GB costs $129.95 but this is rate limited to 3Mbps

 




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  Reply # 50782 2-Nov-2006 12:09
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nzbnw: The other thing is, as widely reported, their is more money in dialup internet connections that broadband...

NZBNW:  As a Telecom insider can you explain to the rest of us why it should be this way?

It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense:

1)  For dialup, you are tying up a Circuit-switched Data Path through Telecom's network
2)  You need an Analogue Modem per connection at the ISP
3)  Whereas for Broadband, it is all packet-switched, and each connection just uses a port on the DSLAM at their local exchange

Where is the extra cost for broadband in this equation?

Is it purely this way because Telecom charge such a high price to other ISPs who resell their services that there is very little retail margin left to cover ISP costs such as International bandwidth, Billing, Tech. Support etc, etc?

Or is there some other reason that is not apparent?
Please enlighten me.  Thanks.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 50794 2-Nov-2006 13:28
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antigrav: Yes, in many ways it has more to do with greedy monopolies (too greedy for their own good) than true cost.


>>So wait, all business are greedy because they want to maximise their profits?? Please....




I said no such thing, I said to greedy for their own good.

It turns out that businesses much like people do better by doing things in a more positive prosperious manner.

If telecom had provided an excellent service at a good price then they would have an absolute monopoly and lots of customers.

It isn';t in their best interest to screw customers residential and business (including movies) so hard the government needs to pull them into pieces and force them to promote competition (as with ubs wholesale not reaching it's quota) or else.



If however you think Telecom is in better shape because of their constraining data and speed, delaying new technology and all the regulation that has happenewd because of it then I suggest you buy stocks, they need someone to, badly!


If Telecom had any sense it would have years and years ago provided Kiwi's with fast and cheap uncapped broadband (Not cared if it cost them a little at the time), kept an absolute monopoly and kept in the governments favour, we could have the highest broadband penetration (because of our isolation and love of the internet and new technology, New Zealand was doing extremely well with dialup penetration) and Telecom with pretty much 100% of the market, but they had to push it until even the government finally got sick of it.


>>As many users here have tried time and time again to be explain to people like yourself that believe no data caps are a right, data cost money


No, it doesn't.

Data is a vanishingly small amount of energy encoded with information.

The cost of the energy is close enough to nil and they aren't providing the data.

The cables and technology cost some money but as said they have long been paid for.

Also as mentioned previously they don't buy (and here I'm not talking about Telecom cause they don't buy they own in effect) data by the GB, they buy a pipe with a set speed 24/7, the cost per GB goes down the more data is used just as the cost per call on you home phone for local call goes down the more you use the phone, your not paying for the call your paying for the line and by using it more you get better value.


>>, it cost to maintain a network


A small amount, look at the line service fee Telecom charges on your phone bill, ok that doesn't cover the international data we are talking about but this is not a major expense.


>>and more importantly a majority of users do not go over their monthly data caps,


Exactly, so if Telecom is right and it's 1 out of 100 that go over the cap and lets assume they go over it by 100 times that's only doubled the pitance of data everyone else is using.


At http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm?id=604&show=all there was a discussion that if the (in 2001 new) Cable linking Australia to Japan at 640Gbit was used flat out it would fill the 3GB cap for 100,000 users in 62.5 minutes at 6.6mbit speeds if my calculations are correct.


It is also mentioned that once in Japan likely their cables could be used to directly route to anywhere as they are well connected.


>>it's a small majority who use up their data caps


If it really is then it isn't a big deal they aren't going to change the calculations much.

However as video becomes a bigger deal you are wrong it will become the norm and the economic forces keeping the current system in place will change or collapse as these restrictions aren't based on cost or technological limits but on billing practices.

And no I'm not sugessting anyone make any less money, just charge less but sell more.


>>, and they should be made to pay for that usage.


On peak usage above the norm, hmm if the heavy users are using most of the data then yes, otherwise and especially if it is offpeak then no, flat rate is better for everyone including people that don't expect to go over. (or else a worm could push you from 200mb a month to 60GB a month getting you thousands of dollars added on to your bill if your plan sucks)


>>Why should someone who uses the internet every second day, effectively pay for the guy next door who downloads 100GB in a month?


Oh, who is willing to do this? Do tell.

Don't be stupid, there are $20 200mb a month plans for such people, better yet dialup.

I am not saying there shouldn't be any plans for those who only want to check their light text email, I'm saying that for people who actually use the internet are gong to use more and that data doesn't really cost, fact is all these higher speeds are pointless of your only going to read email you won't notice the speed.

These faster speeds are to make large things download fast, you have no business on anything over 512kbit (if even that).

What do you think adsl, adsl2+ is for? downloading email faster?

Adsl2+'s selling point is that it's fast enough to stream HDTV.


>>The other thing is, as widely reported, their is more money in dialup internet connections that broadband...


Woopdedoo, now why is that again? Oh Telecom that's right.



Also there are plenty of plans overseas that don't have datacaps, I think NZ is one of the few if not the only country that doesn't have an uncapped plan (forgetting about 256kbit) except for the new capped in prime time only plans. (And WiMAX and any other technology trials, Australia has also had datacaps but is moving away from them)

Of which only one is not seriously crippled outside of prime time too, it's not just p2p they are slowing down.



>>In real terms we don’t have data caps, just 'high speed' data caps


You can't use enough on dialup, of course not.


>>you can download as much as you like, as I'm sure you will notice that many ISPs will not stop you using the internet , but slow you down. So in effect you can still download.


Yes, at glorious dialup speeds!


Again you are asking for a product that will not benefit a majority


I will benefit a majority, oh and I'm not asking for it I have it.

Except for the sad fact it has 128kbit upload which could be solved if Woosh DSL were willing to pay Telecom another $10. (I'd be willing to pay Woosh another $30)


>>, and while their maybe a place for such a product the question will be at what price?


Oh, um let's say $49.95


Ok, saying Datacaps are rare was a mistake, what I meant was that there is an abundance of unlimited plans and very few countries that don't have a decent uncapped broadband plan, it is rare for the main (best) adsl and cable broadband plans in other countries to have data caps.


>>High Speed data caps support the user pays system. I know I will be shot down by many here, but I agree with them.


User Pays is a bad idea, though if you want that you can pay 2/c or 20c a mb depending on your ISP, have fun!

Maybe you wish that flat rate dialup never happened?

Flat rate is attractive because it is no stress, no fuss, you can use what you want and leave what you want, the cost of fs/128 200mb free data is $30 where fs/128 is $50 no data cap off peak.


It costs the ISP no more to remove the off peak limits as it is only making better use of the pipes they pay for.


And yes some will feel the pinch but no data caps don't work and I do know what I'm speaking about when I say that, no New Zealand isn't 'Leading the way' by having datacaps ;)


>>Its not always about 'Leading the way', but about what the customer wants, and large majority don’t want to pay for an unlimited service as their usage does not justify it.


Then they don't need to, there are plans for them, if 200mb is more than enough for them then they they get to save $20 a week and get almost none of the potential of the internet and oh, a heart stopping bill if Granny doesn't update her AV and firewall, but no your right she saves $20 a month!


Maybe though 7mbit or 24mbit is a little more than they need and they can save $20 by using dialup, or if they only need 3 hours they can pay only $5 a month, better yet stamps are only .45c!


>>In that sense I don’t think you quite understand the ideals behind business decisions. A company such as Telecom does not make the rules up to annoy customers


No, it artificially limited the speed of it's broadband because it knows how users detest speed!


>>, but to provide them a service or product at a price that is fair to both the customer and the provider.


Really, yes fair is always Telecoms goal, that's why when a competitor installs broadband in an area Telecom refuses to extend it's broadband to, Telecom does it anyway and offers special pricing not accessible to anyone else to be extra fair and not burden the customers in that area with a monopoly, or at least one that doesn't have them as the monopoly.


It's funny, Just as Telecom is about to lower it's prices someone else always comes out and beats them to the punch.


Yes, you'd be paying far far less if it weren't for all those pesky 'leeching' ISP's.


BTW I just realized one neat advantage of Woosh over Xtra, with Go Large you would need to stay up till midnight to start a big download, not as hard as waiting up till 2:00am with Ihug but sometimes you may just want to hit the hay, but with Woosh you don't care if it uses up your remaining peak data allowance because you'll be asleep when your connection is most temporarily limited to dialup speeds (till midnight), so you can start large downloads and head off to bed. (providing others aren't going to be trying to use it at high speeds before midnight)




>>Or you could just use a download management tool.....


Not always possible and never as easy as it sounds, but yes.


>>And welcome to Geekzone Smile


Now you make me feel bad about my sarcasm laden post ;)

[Moderator edit (JF): URL Hyperlinked]


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 50797 2-Nov-2006 13:34
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Jama: I really get annoyed at people who make claims without first doing their homework.

iiNet do have caps on their ADSL2+ network in Australia. They have peak/off peak quotas and do NOT have any unlimited plans. For example:
120GB (60/60 peak/offpeak) @$129.00 plus a further 34.95 for a phone line. Without a phone line from iiNet 40GB costs $129.95 but this is rate limited to 3Mbps




Yes, I know what you mean, like when someone implies you said something you didn't.
I said Australia was moving away from Caps, I do believe that there are at least in some places uncapped plans, or at least there were.
Also 120GB is indeed moving away from caps, though yes it is still a cap it is a very very generious one

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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 51011 4-Nov-2006 14:01
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"Alright then, I understand now some of the problems with this petition but somthing needs to be done, since joining the go large plan my dl speeds have droped from 70-250kb/s to 3-10kb/s..."

Ok ~ to continue Zanerkin's topic...and he's right by the way ~ there were many complaints regarding this all over Auckland ~ an Xtra technical guy told me days ago.

Xtra Go large plan is a great change from the Adventure plan that I "was" signed in weeks ago BUT, since I was upgraded to the Go Large plan on the Oct 27, problems with my connection started to pop-up.

It started with no connection at all for several hours on the Oct 27. On the following days, there were either random or intermitent disconnections while downloading, online games or normal internet usage. Both computers at home were affected cuz we're using the same router(of course). I've contacted Xtra's technical guys and assured me their "so called" technicians will do something about it ~ yeah right.

Anyway, it got worse. Since 12 midnight of Nov 4, my download connection was down to 50kbps, right now it's averaging around 250kbps ~ my upload rate remained the same at 128kbps.

Xtra sent me a new router to test the quality of our line(it may have been our faulty router) and received it this morning. I removed all our phone connections, replaced all the filters with a new one and only the router is connected on the phone jack. I got the same degraded results i.e. averaging at 250kbps, really slow.

I again phoned Xtra's technical guys for who knows the nth time(since the Oct 27) and reassured me again, that a technician will look at the problem and email me within the next 3 to 4 days ~~ geez that long! 

My question to Xtra/Telecum is, why release the Go Large plan when they have not tested the full reliability of its operations/machine/software? The Xtra technical guys had confided to me that they were totally unprepared for this problems and has flooded there call centres for days ~~ only the Go Large customers are affected(if even that statement is true or only a mere cover up). 

At the moment, there's nothing I can do but wait. I would love to move to another ISP but most of them are not as good or equal to the Go Large plan (thanks to to Telecum!).

I just can't believe Xtra/Telecum aren't open to accept and inform customers about this ongoing problem ~ maybe they're just avoiding further critics that will potentially degrade their "2006 worst ISP" profile.Embarassed 




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Geek
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  Reply # 51025 4-Nov-2006 16:55
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Ok,

I spoke again to xtras tech support and the person i talked to told me that we are currently Xtras "gunni pigs" and they needed the servers to be as full as possible so they could see what problems would arise, Im paying $50 a month for being a gunni pig and getting below 56k speeds?! The person i spoke to also told me that he did not switch his plan over for the reason that "i knew this was going to happen".
 After saying this he tried to feed me some BS about the government made telecom do this and it wasnt their fault..

I got a complaints address off him so send any problems/complaints your having to bbservices.feedback@telecom.co.nz

Well, im changing ISPs..

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  Reply # 51028 4-Nov-2006 17:05
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Zanerkin: Well, im changing ISPs..


Finally! You tell them you dont like the service and how you think it can be improved and if nothing happens you move on to a provider that will better cater for you. It's simple.

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 51044 4-Nov-2006 20:31
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At the moment, there's nothing I can do but wait. I would love to move to another ISP but most of them are not as good or equal to the Go Large plan (thanks to to Telecum!).


The Woosh's flat rate plan, it's better than the go large plan in all ways, no down sides and speed seems ok.



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