VDSL Performance & Tuning

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'That VDSL Cat'
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#794965 8-Apr-2013 13:17

seems my line errors are showing up now :/

pulled apart the jackpoints last night, after seeing that mess (what appeared to be a star configuration aswell, yet to find where the star comes from.. theres certainly no cupboard patch panel)
i'll pull apart the ETP tonight and see if its not in there..

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hio77

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#797156 10-Apr-2013 13:54

soo get home today to my delight, find DLM-1!

unfortunatly, i dont see this lasting long.. given the error rates.. line has been dodgy today it would seem (waterworks going on, involving some wires being moved from poles to ground - if only theld do fiber while they are at it!) so i get the feeling that could be causing the dropouts, clearly theres no loss of sync to the cabinet.

what is the max error rate for DLM-1? did i read a 1-2 per min somewhere round here? might see if i can tweak down the settings, as the 1ms latency is nice for gaming.

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SamF

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#797162 10-Apr-2013 14:05

Frankly, I'm shocked that you were put on DLM-1 at all with your previous error rates! And no, I can't image you'll stay on DLM-1 for long; a CRCPM of <3-4 is our current best estimate of the max allowed error rate I'm afraid.

Definitely try upping your SNRM tho (put the setting to 'max stability' in line settings). You might just drag those error rates back under 4... if you're lucky!

hio77

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#797163 10-Apr-2013 14:07

SamF: Frankly, I'm shocked that you were put on DLM-1 at all with your previous error rates! And no, I can't image you'll stay on DLM-1 for long; a CRCPM of
Definitely try upping your SNRM tho (put the setting to 'max stability' in line settings). You might just drag those error rates back under 4... if you're lucky!

fritz came preset at max performance, cant say i liked what it dropped down to when i dragged it down at first, so left it as it came.

gonna try dragging it down, see if i can get under 4 then..

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sidefx

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#797176 10-Apr-2013 14:23

When you do it, can I suggest you try something like the following:

1) Disconnect incoming line from fritzbox
2) change Target SNRM
3) Save and reboot fritzbox
4) When it cames back up check settings are correct
5) Power off fritzbox and then back on
6) When it cames back up check settings are still correct
7) Reconnect incoming line and wait for it to establish connection again.

It may seem over the top or like snake oil or something, and it's most likely not necessary at all, but I've seen odd behaviour with the fritzbox and error rates previously when I just changed Target SNRM and rebooted straight away. The above process though seems more consistent.

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hio77

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#797178 10-Apr-2013 14:29

sidefx: When you do it, can I suggest you try something like the following:

1) Disconnect incoming line from fritzbox
2) change Target SNRM
3) Save and reboot fritzbox
4) When it cames back up check settings are correct
5) Power off fritzbox and then back on
6) When it cames back up check settings are still correct
7) Reconnect incoming line and wait for it to establish connection again.

It may seem over the top or like snake oil or something, and it's most likely not necessary at all, but I've seen odd behaviour with the fritzbox and error rates previously when I just changed Target SNRM and rebooted straight away. The above process though seems more consistent.

well, went through the process of just changing it, letting it do its own thing..

got all the way down to 5 errors.. so i thought, yeh, almost there, just push it down a little more..

and DLM whacked me back to 8ms.. so back to square one i suppose, gotta organize to sort the line out.. been trying to find out whether i can just go and do it or not from the landlord, but that all goes via another flatmate, and EVERYTHING is iver forgotten, or lost in transition..

thought ild do a little sneaky one, and just flick out the other lines, but turns out it appears to be some sort of star layout, and dodgy looking wiring at that.

anyone know what bounds you generally can change in terms of renting, looking at just getting coffeebarron? in to sort it, saves me the trouble..

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SamF

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#797185 10-Apr-2013 14:41

Yeah, once you're over that 3-4 CRCPM it seems to drop you down from DLM-1 pretty damn fast!

SamF

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#797188 10-Apr-2013 14:45

I've been thinking... (dangerous I know), watching my error rates now that I'm on DLM-1 again (without tweaking), they tend to fluctuate by a factor of up to 4 times between the day and night. I wonder if DLM will throw you down to a lower DLM profile if you have high error rates for a relatively short period of time (say a couple of hours, or even less), vs what we're assuming that it is; 24hrs or more. That would explain why previously I was seeing <2 CRCPM error rates for the most part but then getting thrown off DLM-1 overnight.

Or maybe it looks at the maximum CPCPM over a 24 hour period vs the average over the entire life of the connected session? This is backed up by what hio77 has experienced today.

hio77

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#797196 10-Apr-2013 14:55

SamF: I've been thinking... (dangerous I know), watching my error rates now that I'm on DLM-1 again (without tweaking), they tend to fluctuate by a factor of up to 4 times between the day and night. I wonder if DLM will throw you down to a lower DLM profile if you have high error rates for a relatively short period of time (say a couple of hours, or even less), vs what we're assuming that it is; 24hrs or more. That would explain why previously I was seeing <2 CRCPM error rates for the most part but then getting thrown off DLM-1 overnight.

-snip-

Or maybe it looks at the maximum CPCPM over a 24 hour period vs the average over the entire life of the connected session? This is backed up by what hio77 has experienced today.

by that logic, i was getting an average of 5.8CRCPM at 8pm, and 2.3CRCPM at 3am right before the resync, so maybe thats about a 4CRCPM average for the whole day?

that somewhat goes inline with what your saying... i might see if i cant setup a script to pull from telnet error rates hourly, then stats can be calculated off that..

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sidefx

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#797204 10-Apr-2013 15:22

hio77:
i might see if i cant setup a script to pull from telnet error rates hourly, then stats can be calculated off that..

I've been meaning to try something similar. Though I hadn't thoguh about doing it via telnet - I was just look at the web interface. Once you have a login token\session id I think you can just make get requests to this url:

https://<yourfritzbox>/cgi-bin/webcm?getpage=../html/de/internet/adsldaten.xml&sid=<yoursid>

At least that seems to give me all the info you see on the DSL tab (and data from the other tabs is also avaiable by making calls but replacing "adsldaten.xml" with names as appropriate for the other tabs)

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helis

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#797226 10-Apr-2013 16:15

I was on 8CRCpm for 2 days before I increased my SNR to 13. Which got my CRCpm down to 2. I've been synced for 32 days now. Still on DLM1.

I found the biggest issue with staying on DLM1 is disconnects. Since being on DLM1 I've rebooted once and it was to change my SNR. The first time I was on DLM I resync'd 3 times in half a day. The third time bumped me off DLM1.

So from my experience when you get on DLM1 either don't touch anything or make one change and make it good.

With your CRCpm of 9 I would have just increased your SNR by 1 or 2 and your CRCpm would have been down to the level I am on which has been fine for 32 days now. I also only lost 1Mbps from the sync speed.

stevehodge

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#797253 10-Apr-2013 17:00

helis: I was on 8CRCpm for 2 days before I increased my SNR to 13. Which got my CRCpm down to 2. I've been synced for 32 days now. Still on DLM1.

I found the biggest issue with staying on DLM1 is disconnects. Since being on DLM1 I've rebooted once and it was to change my SNR. The first time I was on DLM I resync'd 3 times in half a day. The third time bumped me off DLM1.

So from my experience when you get on DLM1 either don't touch anything or make one change and make it good.

I'd agree with that. I've been on DLM1 for quite extended periods with bad error rates at times.

SamF

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#797497 10-Apr-2013 23:07

Hmm, maybe you guys are onto something. I have certainly been guilty of 'excessive' resets while on DLM-1 (too much tweaking

), and have been kicked back down to a lower DLM profile despite seemingly staying under the CRCPM 'limit'. Supposedly, DLM can distinguish between 'user' resets and resets due to line instability, but we've never been able to verify this or determine out how it might distinguish between the two. It could be that in theory it can distinguish, but in practice it sucks at it :)

It would be interesting to know how many resets were tolerated in what time period.

hio77

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#797498 10-Apr-2013 23:14

SamF: Hmm, maybe you guys are onto something. I have certainly been guilty of 'excessive' resets while on DLM-1 (too much tweaking ), and have been kicked back down to a lower DLM profile despite seemingly staying under the CRCPM 'limit'. Supposedly, DLM can distinguish between 'user' resets and resets due to line instability, but we've never been able to verify this or determine out how it might distinguish between the two. It could be that in theory it can distinguish, but in practice it sucks at it :)

It would be interesting to know how many resets were tolerated in what time period.

upon the 5th resync within an hour, it shoved me back :/

DLM seems to be quite a best to deal with, reset detection is rather due for some work it would seem, tweaking and letting the box perform its own resync in theory should certainly not be detected.. then again, whats to say the fritz cleanly closes its connection like a "user reset"

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SamF

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#797505 10-Apr-2013 23:33

In other news, I performed the 'magic' 5 minute router power-off last night, and my CRCPM rates dropped by a factor of 10 (currently 0.09 down from ~1)!

Admittedly my sync rate also dropped by 0.5mbit, but I hardly think that's enough to make this much difference.

This power-off error rate improvement behavior is now consistent enough for me to recommend a 5 minute power off after any kind of line adjustment. This is also what sidefx has been recommending for a while, although he only recommends a momentary power-off. In my testing I have found a momentary power off doesn't always give the same effect as a 5 min one. The optimal time might be less than 5 min, but it takes so long to get back on DLM-1 and it's so easy to get off it that I've never been game to try less than that. 5 min isn't that long in any case.

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