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3344 posts

Uber Geek
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  # 664056 30-Jul-2012 15:44
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gzt:
ubergeeknz: People need to get in the mindset that the Internet is a public place, and anything you do in a public place could be monitored by other people.

This is kind of true and kind of not. There are long established legal rights to privacy. Interception of private communication is illegal in many of the examples you give. It is not unreasonable to expect an ISP to comply with the law - not that there is any reason to think otherwise in this thread.


I'm not saying whether it is legal - I am saying it can (and does) happen.  

And Government agencies typically have the ability to legally monitor peoples activity, or compel others with the capability of such to do so.



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Master Geek
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  # 664180 30-Jul-2012 19:53
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Talkiet:
bradi: [snip] I realise in this day and age that most (if not all ISPs) monitor most if not all traffic [snip]


And then...

bradi: [snip] FUD is not good enough.


I agree, FUD is not good enough. CITE YOUR SOURCES for your initial assertion please.

Cheers - N



Fair call mate.... I don't have sources, just a hunch and 20 years experience in Enterprise IT.

What I was after was some info on what ISPs "actively" monitor so I can make an informed decision regarding my next ISP.

Interestingly I think I'd actually like to know more. Hopefully there are some more customer focussed ISPs out there that may wish to comment (not holding my breath to get anything from the 3 urr 2 major Telcos (especially as I work for one...)... but you already know that ;)

 
 
 
 




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  # 664181 30-Jul-2012 19:55
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NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.



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  # 664198 30-Jul-2012 20:13
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insane:
bradi:

...I realise in this day and age that most (if not all ISPs) monitor most if not all traffic, but what do they do with that information, how long do they keep it, and do I have access to it?



bradi: LOL, I said monitor, not log...



Some ISPs monitor traffic flows in general (not necessarily per user) for unusual traffic patterns etc, and as needed will capture more specific information if someone requires 'special attention'.

More and more ISPs are deploying appliances though to help automate the process, ie,  Arbor Networks Peakflow system, or IronPorts for email scrubbing.

People who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.


Thanks for your useful comments.

Yea not sure if I agree with your last statement... I have nothing to hide (or happy to take responsibility for my actions anyway), but I also don't want to share my Internet usage with someone that realistically doesn't have my best interests at heart.

But if you follow your logic then shouldn't ISPs disclose what they actually monitor, log, etc...  I understand that if you do bad things and get caught you have a right to disclosure, shouldn't this kind of work before the fact as well as after or do we really want ISPs policing the Internet.

Plus this opens up a whole different can of worms where you basically don't trust anyone, anywhere and have to monitor everything they do... perhaps a better solution, but how do you watch the watchers?

Anyways not really what I was after.  I want to know if I had reason to, could I ask my ISP for the months worth of monitoring data they keep that is specifically attributed to me (or my connection, account, line, etc).... and if ISPs had any "legal privacy policies", and if not, what would be my recourse if I thought my ISP (or upstream provider) was spying on me or monitoring my traffic.

Surely this must be an issue for some people, and especially some companies / organisations...



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  # 664206 30-Jul-2012 20:31
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gzt:
ubergeeknz: People need to get in the mindset that the Internet is a public place, and anything you do in a public place could be monitored by other people.

This is kind of true and kind of not. There are long established legal rights to privacy. Interception of private communication is illegal in many of the examples you give. It is not unreasonable to expect an ISP to comply with the law - not that there is any reason to think otherwise in this thread.


So this is more what I am getting at... so I want to know what legal provisions are in place to prevent an ISP from actively monitoring traffic and what penalties (punishments, LOL) are available if they break those provisions.  This is different to lawful interception, which is outside of routine ISP management or activities.



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  # 664209 30-Jul-2012 20:39
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gzt: If I had a concern about ISP traffic monitoring I would use one or more of the many free or commercial solutions. I don't.


Ohh, just reread this, so wanted to follow up, you mentioned free solutions to verify if an ISP was monitoring your traffic... this is interesting, as I don't know how you could possibly tell.  So how do you know for sure?  You can't...

http://www.endace.com/industry-solutions-telecommunications.html

Unless you know a way to detect port mirroring, in-line packet capturing, and centralised logging.

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Uber Geek
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  # 664291 30-Jul-2012 22:22
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bradi:
NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.


I repeat, Cite Your Sources.

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


 
 
 
 




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  # 664306 30-Jul-2012 22:57
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Talkiet:
bradi:
NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.


I repeat, Cite Your Sources.

Cheers - N



Capability : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability

Port mirroring : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_mirroring
Packet capture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_capture
Netflow : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetFlow
Data retention : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention

Now if you want me to specifically state exact examples I can't as I would be breaking the law.

But a more generic legal requirement in NZ is : http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0019/latest/DLM242393.html



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Uber Geek
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  # 664313 30-Jul-2012 23:05
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bradi:

But a more generic legal requirement in NZ is : http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0019/latest/DLM242393.html




that applied to telecommunications,not internet. We know of caases where ISPs have been required by the police to giveup call records and allow wire taps later used in a court case
Presumably if they track people there have been exmples where the ISPs have been involved in tracking  a person's web habits. Can you point to a case where this  happened?

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Uber Geek
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  # 664315 30-Jul-2012 23:09
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NonprayingMantis:
bradi:



that applied to telecommunications,not internet. We know of caases where ISPs have been required by the police to giveup call records and allow wire taps later used in a court case
Presumably if they track people there have been exmples where the ISPs have been involved in tracking  a person's web habits. Can you point to a case where this  happened?


See http://www.scribd.com/doc/49548905/ECHELON-Surveillance-Program
ECHELON and it's sucessors are already tapping all the traffic and shipping them off to the NSA or analyising there and then. Good luck finding anything where the GCSB admits to it, but you have to assume they do it.
(See the "spy bases" we have here.)

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Uber Geek
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  # 664316 30-Jul-2012 23:12
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bradi:
gzt: If I had a concern about ISP traffic monitoring I would use one or more of the many free or commercial solutions. I don't.


Ohh, just reread this, so wanted to follow up, you mentioned free solutions to verify if an ISP was monitoring your traffic... this is interesting, as I don't know how you could possibly tell.  So how do you know for sure?  You can't...

http://www.endace.com/industry-solutions-telecommunications.html

Unless you know a way to detect port mirroring, in-line packet capturing, and centralised logging.


There's no way to detect the above. Though you might be able to detect tampering with your packets, assuming your crypto setup is good enough. (And you pay attention)


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Uber Geek
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  # 664318 30-Jul-2012 23:15
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See also http://www.tcf.org.nz/library/cc58568d-2100-46a8-9cfc-982c3d0679d8.cmr for how "lawful intercept" is implemented in NZ, re the law.



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Master Geek
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Master Geek
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  # 664320 30-Jul-2012 23:18
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Uber Geek
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  # 664321 30-Jul-2012 23:41
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bradi: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+does+the+nz+telecommunications+act+apply+to+isps


I don't think you really grasp the purpose of lmgtfy.com  your link doesn't actually give me the answer to the question.

Now,had you done
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=lawful+intercept+ISP+NZ
the first result would have been:
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/isps-brace-data-intercept-law-93906
which suggests that ISPs do have the capability to track individuals usage when given a court order

However, this will be VERY different from having the ability to track everyone's usage at all times.

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