Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3
Fully Operational
3237 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1041

Trusted
Vocus
Subscriber

  Reply # 664056 30-Jul-2012 15:44 Send private message

gzt:
ubergeeknz: People need to get in the mindset that the Internet is a public place, and anything you do in a public place could be monitored by other people.

This is kind of true and kind of not. There are long established legal rights to privacy. Interception of private communication is illegal in many of the examples you give. It is not unreasonable to expect an ISP to comply with the law - not that there is any reason to think otherwise in this thread.


I'm not saying whether it is legal - I am saying it can (and does) happen.  

And Government agencies typically have the ability to legally monitor peoples activity, or compel others with the capability of such to do so.



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664180 30-Jul-2012 19:53 Send private message

Talkiet:
bradi: [snip] I realise in this day and age that most (if not all ISPs) monitor most if not all traffic [snip]


And then...

bradi: [snip] FUD is not good enough.


I agree, FUD is not good enough. CITE YOUR SOURCES for your initial assertion please.

Cheers - N



Fair call mate.... I don't have sources, just a hunch and 20 years experience in Enterprise IT.

What I was after was some info on what ISPs "actively" monitor so I can make an informed decision regarding my next ISP.

Interestingly I think I'd actually like to know more. Hopefully there are some more customer focussed ISPs out there that may wish to comment (not holding my breath to get anything from the 3 urr 2 major Telcos (especially as I work for one...)... but you already know that ;)



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664181 30-Jul-2012 19:55 Send private message

NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664198 30-Jul-2012 20:13 Send private message

insane:
bradi:

...I realise in this day and age that most (if not all ISPs) monitor most if not all traffic, but what do they do with that information, how long do they keep it, and do I have access to it?



bradi: LOL, I said monitor, not log...



Some ISPs monitor traffic flows in general (not necessarily per user) for unusual traffic patterns etc, and as needed will capture more specific information if someone requires 'special attention'.

More and more ISPs are deploying appliances though to help automate the process, ie,  Arbor Networks Peakflow system, or IronPorts for email scrubbing.

People who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear.


Thanks for your useful comments.

Yea not sure if I agree with your last statement... I have nothing to hide (or happy to take responsibility for my actions anyway), but I also don't want to share my Internet usage with someone that realistically doesn't have my best interests at heart.

But if you follow your logic then shouldn't ISPs disclose what they actually monitor, log, etc...  I understand that if you do bad things and get caught you have a right to disclosure, shouldn't this kind of work before the fact as well as after or do we really want ISPs policing the Internet.

Plus this opens up a whole different can of worms where you basically don't trust anyone, anywhere and have to monitor everything they do... perhaps a better solution, but how do you watch the watchers?

Anyways not really what I was after.  I want to know if I had reason to, could I ask my ISP for the months worth of monitoring data they keep that is specifically attributed to me (or my connection, account, line, etc).... and if ISPs had any "legal privacy policies", and if not, what would be my recourse if I thought my ISP (or upstream provider) was spying on me or monitoring my traffic.

Surely this must be an issue for some people, and especially some companies / organisations...



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664206 30-Jul-2012 20:31 Send private message

gzt:
ubergeeknz: People need to get in the mindset that the Internet is a public place, and anything you do in a public place could be monitored by other people.

This is kind of true and kind of not. There are long established legal rights to privacy. Interception of private communication is illegal in many of the examples you give. It is not unreasonable to expect an ISP to comply with the law - not that there is any reason to think otherwise in this thread.


So this is more what I am getting at... so I want to know what legal provisions are in place to prevent an ISP from actively monitoring traffic and what penalties (punishments, LOL) are available if they break those provisions.  This is different to lawful interception, which is outside of routine ISP management or activities.



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664209 30-Jul-2012 20:39 Send private message

gzt: If I had a concern about ISP traffic monitoring I would use one or more of the many free or commercial solutions. I don't.


Ohh, just reread this, so wanted to follow up, you mentioned free solutions to verify if an ISP was monitoring your traffic... this is interesting, as I don't know how you could possibly tell.  So how do you know for sure?  You can't...

http://www.endace.com/industry-solutions-telecommunications.html

Unless you know a way to detect port mirroring, in-line packet capturing, and centralised logging.

3131 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1615

Trusted
Spark NZ

  Reply # 664291 30-Jul-2012 22:22 Send private message

bradi:
NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.


I repeat, Cite Your Sources.

Cheers - N




137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664306 30-Jul-2012 22:57 Send private message

Talkiet:
bradi:
NonprayingMantis: in the submissions to the comcom some ISPs (from memory Telecom and Telstraclear, but possibly others) stated that they do not monitor any traffic and do not even have the capability to do so if they wanted to.

About the best they could do would to monitor traffic types (e.g. they might be able to differentiate torrents from video streaming)

Slingshot's new UFB plans for schools block P2P,so they must monitor for that somehow.


Ok, this is wrong, all ISPs (especially Telco's) have the capability.


I repeat, Cite Your Sources.

Cheers - N



Capability : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability

Port mirroring : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_mirroring
Packet capture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_capture
Netflow : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetFlow
Data retention : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_data_retention

Now if you want me to specifically state exact examples I can't as I would be breaking the law.

But a more generic legal requirement in NZ is : http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0019/latest/DLM242393.html



6425 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1567


  Reply # 664313 30-Jul-2012 23:05 Send private message

bradi:

But a more generic legal requirement in NZ is : http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0019/latest/DLM242393.html




that applied to telecommunications,not internet. We know of caases where ISPs have been required by the police to giveup call records and allow wire taps later used in a court case
Presumably if they track people there have been exmples where the ISPs have been involved in tracking  a person's web habits. Can you point to a case where this  happened?

2332 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 80


  Reply # 664315 30-Jul-2012 23:09 Send private message

NonprayingMantis:
bradi:



that applied to telecommunications,not internet. We know of caases where ISPs have been required by the police to giveup call records and allow wire taps later used in a court case
Presumably if they track people there have been exmples where the ISPs have been involved in tracking  a person's web habits. Can you point to a case where this  happened?


See http://www.scribd.com/doc/49548905/ECHELON-Surveillance-Program
ECHELON and it's sucessors are already tapping all the traffic and shipping them off to the NSA or analyising there and then. Good luck finding anything where the GCSB admits to it, but you have to assume they do it.
(See the "spy bases" we have here.)

2332 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 80


  Reply # 664316 30-Jul-2012 23:12 Send private message

bradi:
gzt: If I had a concern about ISP traffic monitoring I would use one or more of the many free or commercial solutions. I don't.


Ohh, just reread this, so wanted to follow up, you mentioned free solutions to verify if an ISP was monitoring your traffic... this is interesting, as I don't know how you could possibly tell.  So how do you know for sure?  You can't...

http://www.endace.com/industry-solutions-telecommunications.html

Unless you know a way to detect port mirroring, in-line packet capturing, and centralised logging.


There's no way to detect the above. Though you might be able to detect tampering with your packets, assuming your crypto setup is good enough. (And you pay attention)


2332 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 80


  Reply # 664318 30-Jul-2012 23:15 Send private message

See also http://www.tcf.org.nz/library/cc58568d-2100-46a8-9cfc-982c3d0679d8.cmr for how "lawful intercept" is implemented in NZ, re the law.



137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664319 30-Jul-2012 23:17 Send private message




137 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user


  Reply # 664320 30-Jul-2012 23:18 Send private message


6425 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1567


  Reply # 664321 30-Jul-2012 23:41 Send private message

bradi: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+does+the+nz+telecommunications+act+apply+to+isps


I don't think you really grasp the purpose of lmgtfy.com  your link doesn't actually give me the answer to the question.

Now,had you done
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=lawful+intercept+ISP+NZ
the first result would have been:
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/isps-brace-data-intercept-law-93906
which suggests that ISPs do have the capability to track individuals usage when given a court order

However, this will be VERY different from having the ability to track everyone's usage at all times.

1 | 2 | 3
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Terabyte looms as Vocus users download 430GB a month
Posted 19-May-2017 14:51


2degrees tips into profit after seven lean years
Posted 19-May-2017 09:47


2degrees growth story continues
Posted 17-May-2017 15:25


Symantec Blocks 22 Million Attempted WannaCry Ransomware Attacks Globally
Posted 17-May-2017 12:41


HPE Unveils Computer Built for the Era of Big Data
Posted 17-May-2017 12:39


Samsung Galaxy S8 Plus review: Beautiful, feature-packed
Posted 16-May-2017 20:14


After ten years of mail pain Spark is done with Yahoo
Posted 15-May-2017 13:12


Warnings from security firms: do not click that link or risk your computer being infected
Posted 15-May-2017 10:11


Pushpay named NZ Hi-Tech Company of the Year 2017
Posted 15-May-2017 09:59


Passive Optical Lan means fibre to the desktop
Posted 12-May-2017 17:09


Finalists Named for 2017 CIO Awards
Posted 11-May-2017 20:00


Exhibition to showcase digital artwork from across the globe
Posted 10-May-2017 18:54


Accelerate 2017 to focus on navigating disruption with a design thinking mindset
Posted 10-May-2017 18:49


James Pascoe Group switches to Rimini Street for support of SAP aplications
Posted 10-May-2017 18:40


Microsoft New Zealand introduces breakthrough employee family leave benefits
Posted 10-May-2017 18:37



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.