Hawaiki Cable

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Reply # 683294 9-Sep-2012 07:29

DonGould:
mercutio:
wired: Problem with landing it near Wellington is that there is a big trench to the west with boulders that keep moving in it. These kinda mash up a cable hence people avoid that area. Maybe further south is ok?

They've already determined that Antarctica isn't safe for running cables to.

I've seen a few comments about Antarctica.? The biggest customer down there would be the US.? For the amount of data they'd be using, I think that it could be hard to convince anyone the business case for putting a cable down that far, though I guess that eventually they'll have to replace the satellite link they're using currently.

It would make for a very expensive cable though... I'd guess you'd be back to the $400m mark given the distance.

But would you just land that cable at Bluff?? Why would you want to build up the South Island when there's already 3 transit providers down that far?

Does anyone have any idea how much data the US move from down there?

Heard on National Radio recently that a cable isn't feasible to McMurdo or South pole due to constantly moving ice. It'll take out the cable on sea floor and where it lands but also anywhere on land where ice moves too.

Maybe they could make stretchy fibre or lay lots of slack and keep moving it back. :-P

DonGould

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Reply # 683573 9-Sep-2012 20:47

nzfatmatt: Heard on National Radio recently that a cable isn't feasible to McMurdo or South pole due to constantly moving ice. It'll take out the cable on sea floor and where it lands but also anywhere on land where ice moves too.

Maybe they could make stretchy fibre or lay lots of slack and keep moving it back. :-P

I know they have a lot of fibre down there already. I don't know anything about how they manage it on the ice.

I can well imagine that it would be very complex to build down there. Just getting a cable ship that can service that area would be an issue in it self I should imagine.

Even if we just assume a direct run from a branching unit on a Chch-Tas cable, you're looked at $73 million dollars just for that bit of the cable, assuming a 2,600km run based on what it cost to build PPC1 a few years back.

I can see the cable company loving that idea, it's a big ticket, but I don't currently have a clue who we convince to pay for it, how we convince them or what benefit it actually delivers in real terms to New Zealanders (or anyone else for that matter). But I'm all ears for someone to explain it to me.

I am starting to get a picture for why a Chc-Tas cable would make great sense for New Zealand and Australia, even some benefit for SCCN.

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raytaylor

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Reply # 685275 13-Sep-2012 01:56

I just want to say you are all wrong.
A new cable should be landed in Hawkes Bay.

Oh and yes i believe we should be using our hydro resources more efficiently.

NZ has the capability to become a leader in call centre and hosting services.
1 - unemployment. I say we can get people who are unemployed and train them up. We have a much easier to understand accent than the indians from an american perspective

I dont wish to offend when i say this but when i worked at The Warehouse, there were people that had worked there 10 years or more. They were happy with their job, knew it well and didnt have any ambition to climb the corporate ladder.
Towns like Wairoa in northern hawkes bay have high unemployment rates, and heaps of people that fit the personality profile i describe. They are perfect for running a callcentre for Visa, Mastercard or any big corporate where scripts are used. They are happy to do their remedial job well, even though most of us on this forum may think it would suck. and they are happy to be working. It also increases a towns economy by bringing big corporates in to spend money on the labour - even if at minimum wage.

2- hydro = green hosting.
Water that comes out of a hydro dam that is used for generating power can then be used for cooling a data centre.
DonG i think thats a genius idea.

Ray Taylor
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Ragnor

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Reply # 685397 13-Sep-2012 10:17

Call centre's work is generally low paid unskilled work for the most part (very few level 2 or 3 positions compared to level 1).

NZ to world latency (you can't break the laws of physics) makes us becoming a big hoster of lots of the worlds content unlikely.

Hardly a grand future plan there, need to think bigger than that imo.

DonGould

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Reply # 685455 13-Sep-2012 11:13

raytaylor: I just want to say you are all wrong.
A new cable should be landed in Hawkes Bay.

I'm not sure I understand the dynamics of what you're suggesting, would you care to explain?

What you're suggesting is over building the land based links from Auckland to HB, ok, that makes sense, that transit isn't cheap, but you're then imposing that transit cost on Aucklanders who want data from your landing station.

You're not providing any gain for people in the south as we still have to pay for 600km of transit that we don't have to pay with my Christchurch based landing.

However, at $20/m v's $50/m it does start to make some sense to run a sea based cable up and down the east coast of the country. The kicker is the landing stations at $5m a hit.

raytaylor:
Oh and yes i believe we should be using our hydro resources more efficiently.

If Australia pull out of Bluff we're going to end up with so much unused power it might not be funny. I think you're right though. I don't understand why we're not making steal here and selling it to China.

raytaylor:
NZ has the capability to become a leader in call centre and hosting services.
1 - unemployment. I say we can get people who are unemployed and train them up. We have a much easier to understand accent than the indians from an american perspective

Now you're starting to talk! :)

However, the market is West, not East. The latency North is 120ms just from Auckland. You start to notice latency on audio after 100ms. So your entire market on the West Coast of USA is compromised and the East Coast is just to far away.

You also need to think in terms of time zones. North doesn't give you a time zone change, East heads us in the wrong direction.

The dynamics in the US are changing as well. Our dollar is to strong against theirs. They are adjusting theirs to get back into the global market.

To our West we have 5 million English speaking customers in a range of different time zones.

You're right about training I think. We would need to provide a broad range of training to New Zealanders to make them really useful to the Australian market.

raytaylor:
I dont wish to offend when i say this but when i worked at The Warehouse, there were people that had worked there 10 years or more. They were happy with their job, knew it well and didnt have any ambition to climb the corporate ladder.
Towns like Wairoa in northern hawkes bay have high unemployment rates, and heaps of people that fit the personality profile i describe. They are perfect for running a callcentre for Visa, Mastercard or any big corporate where scripts are used. They are happy to do their remedial job well, even though most of us on this forum may think it would suck. and they are happy to be working. It also increases a towns economy by bringing big corporates in to spend money on the labour - even if at minimum wage.

Again I agree with you Ray. Not everyone in a rural area can, or wants to, work on a dairy farm. Many people are there simply because it's home.

Small urban call centers make sense to me. It just like small urban banks. Bendego bank in Australia proved that you keep a bank in a rural center and the center stays alive.

Our challenge this century is going to be keeping healthy communities.

raytaylor:
2- hydro = green hosting.
Water that comes out of a hydro dam that is used for generating power can then be used for cooling a data centre.
DonG i think thats a genius idea.

In the US they have built data centers right next to power generation for exactly this reason. It's just cheaper and more profitable to move 1's than watts.

Data center location also has to be about the location of people as well. Having a small DC in HB does make sense. It creates a small number of jobs for the local guys who want to work and live in HB but have DC skills.

We've got growing DC capacity in Christchurch as well, but presently we're to far from market.

The difference is over 700km of land based transit.

The real killer is that Syd/Melb hop. That's all high demand capacity. While it's well contested, the reality is that transit costs a lot of money from who ever you purchase it from.

The green cable (Chc - Hobart - Melb - Ald) cuts out that transit for our DCs. However, it also puts Sydney on the back haul leg to Sydney, which adds another 4 million NBN customers by 2020.

From Sydney you can also still pick up Qld and most of Australia under the 100ms latency question. That's almost 20 million NBN fibre based customers coming at you.

I agree with you if you're going to suggest that the Syd to Qld link is still high demand capacity, but it's a bit different. Qld has a PPC1 branch unit lying off shore. It will continue to keep that capacity very competitive or TPG may put a landing station in Bris and bring it on shore. That would let them land data from .us in Qld which would give the whole eastern seaboard another path of .us data. I have to give Bevan Slattery his due, he's one very smart guy!

D

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Reply # 685540 13-Sep-2012 13:06

DonGould:
raytaylor: I just want to say you are all wrong.
A new cable should be landed in Hawkes Bay.

I'm not sure I understand the dynamics of what you're suggesting, would you care to explain?

I run an ISP, and i want cheaper international upstream so i can offer my customers cheaper per gb pricing, and can do that if i am not paying much in national backhaul.

Therefore the optimal place to land a cable for this country is hawkes bay. I really dont care if christchurch is another 7ms away, i am sure the average user down there doesnt mind waiting 7ms if they feel good knowing that they are sacrificing a small insignificant amount of time so that the noble people of hawkes bay can have better pricing.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

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raytaylor

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Reply # 685558 13-Sep-2012 13:19

DonGould:
If Australia pull out of Bluff we're going to end up with so much unused power it might not be funny. I think you're right though. I don't understand why we're not making steal here and selling it to China.

Something to pay attention to
China are changing their export laws and over the next 10 to 20 years, you gradually wont be able to export minerals such as silicon from china, unless its in a manufactured product.

So China has massive resources and silicon is a good example.

A company may mine the silicon in china, but the only way to get it out is if they also build a factory in china and turn it into an mp3 player or computer using chinese labour.

One of our big industries is forrestry. Japan likes to buy alot of our wood - why send it over to japan as logs when it can be manufactured into products here, with our labour, and then be shipped over.
I know there are cost differences but it balances can be struck.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
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Lorenceo

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Reply # 685559 13-Sep-2012 13:21

You're all dreaming if you think it's going to be landed anywhere other than Auckland. :)

freitasm

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Reply # 685569 13-Sep-2012 13:27

raytaylor:
DonGould:
raytaylor: I just want to say you are all wrong.
A new cable should be landed in Hawkes Bay.

I'm not sure I understand the dynamics of what you're suggesting, would you care to explain?

I run an ISP, and i want cheaper international upstream so i can offer my customers cheaper per gb pricing, and can do that if i am not paying much in national backhaul.

Therefore the optimal place to land a cable for this country is hawkes bay. I really dont care if christchurch is another 7ms away, i am sure the average user down there doesnt mind waiting 7ms if they feel good knowing that they are sacrificing a small insignificant amount of time so that the noble people of hawkes bay can have better pricing.

You think the best place to land a cable is where you are based, to benefit your business, leaving outside the Master Plan the fact that 85% of Internet traffic in New Zealand is in Auckland?

Madness.

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Reply # 685570 13-Sep-2012 13:27

raytaylor: We have a much easier to understand accent than the indians from an american perspective

QFT. Americans think the British accent is totally sexy.

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DonGould

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Reply # 685591 13-Sep-2012 14:05

raytaylor: I run an ISP, and i want cheaper international upstream so i can offer my customers cheaper per gb pricing, and can do that if i am not paying much in national backhaul.

Dear Mr Taylor,

I totally support your desire to push more 1's to your customer at a lower cost so you can drive up APRU in a meaningful way.

I talked to a small ISP in another part of the country a few weeks back about his backhaul upgrade and the numbers would make the average GZ'er just wince.

The current cost of data in the regions is so high that streaming a single Sunday church service to family and friends at another Church in Auckland, from your area, would empty an entire years poor bowl in a flash.

What this means is that the poor bowl stays full and there is no content moving at all.

If people want to raise up in praise on Sunday night with your church then they have to visit in person.

I get that my visiting is great for your local economy. However, I'm not likely to visit if I don't have any preexisting relationship with your community and this is where streaming your world to mine comes into play.

I agree with you, we need to reduce the cost of the 1's to a point where you can join me in my Church on Sunday morning, my council meeting on Monday and the pub on Friday night to watch out two towns battle it out on the football field in Australia!

raytaylor:
Therefore the optimal place to land a cable for this country is hawkes bay. I really dont care if christchurch is another 7ms away, i am sure the average user down there doesnt mind waiting 7ms if they feel good knowing that they are sacrificing a small insignificant amount of time so that the noble people of hawkes bay can have better pricing.

The key, Mr Taylor, that you seem to be missing is that I am proposing taking half the load off the national transit. If we drop a spanking new cable in to HB from Sydney then all we manage to do is over build the SCCN .au link and a bit of the run to Auckland.

What I'm suggesting giving you a choice of direction to pull your Australian 1's from.

I'm also suggesting opening up three major DC cities in different time zones.

Ragnor is right, we have to think of a grander plan than just level 1 customer support.

Everyone agrees that the future in this fibre world is video, lots and lots of video.

We have to start thinking in terms of broadcasting video to every corner of the world, without geoblocking and content that people will want, special interest groups.

What's more, it should bring the cost of internet down for Aucklanders as well!

At present national providers have uniform retail prices. They make more money in Auckland but then loose it again moving the 1's to Bluff.

Providers can't afford to give users in Bluff bigger data caps, the transit is just to expensive when you're moving 1's 1,400km.

What I'm proposing is shortening that run to 470km, or 1/3rd. You're suggesting keeping it 1,000km.

If the national providers can give uniform pricing but cut 2/3rds of their transit costs out then that has to translate to higher data caps.

Take the Aussie data off the transit

I'm also suggesting getting all the Aussie data off the Auckland-south route.

Aussie data should all come in from Christchurch to everywhere not immediately south of Auckland.

The transit from Auckland south should be used for the US data coming off SCCN.

Once you take the Australian data off the transit then that frees up that capacity for more US data from SCCN.

So in HB you pull your US data from the north, but you pull your Western data from the south.

No need to upgrade to much existing national transit.

Landing a cable in HB is a cool idea, but at what cost to upgrading the national transit out of HB? HB is quite small iirc?

What I'm proposing is taking all the Australian southern direction transit off the network and bringing it in directly.

This should result in all the capacity currently pulled down the North Island being removed on three networks - Telecom, TelstraClear, FX.

I don't know what Telecom and FX are running, but iirc TelstraClear are only running 100Gb currently. That's a tiny fraction of what SCCN can deliver into New Zealand currently.

SCCN have been telling us for years that the issue is not them and not their pricing. They're right, I agree with them, it's not.

The issue is the national transit and the fact it all comes from Auckland.

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Reply # 685600 13-Sep-2012 14:16

DonGould:
Dear Mr Taylor,

I totally support your desire to push more 1's to your customer at a lower cost so you can drive up APRU in a meaningful way.

Sounds like you're all set for when the Indians coming knocking.

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Reply # 685603 13-Sep-2012 14:17

Lorenceo: You're all dreaming if you think it's going to be landed anywhere other than Auckland. :)

If you never have a dream, you never have a dream come true.

Do you recall what they said to the first guy who suggested going to the moon?!

I'm talking about a $100 million dollar project here.

Have you looked at what they're planning on spending in Wellington on a single under pass just so they can make the war memorial bigger?

At present we're spending $10 million a week just on roading in Christchurch.... I spend a fraction of my day on the roads but I use the net all day.

D

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Reply # 685608 13-Sep-2012 14:24

freitasm: You think the best place to land a cable is where you are based, to benefit your business, leaving outside the Master Plan the fact that 85% of Internet traffic in New Zealand is in Auckland?

Madness.

Yes! Mr Taylor has vision for his community.

He's looked at that exact fact. He's seen that the barrier to developing his city as an information, digital economy is the exact fact you point to 85% of our digital economy exists in Auckland and that has to change.

He's seen the impact of landing digital connectivity into the Auckland area and wants to replicate those benefits to the HB area. Smart man.

It's smart to grow healthy communities. It's smart to not just send our best and brightest to be in other parts of the world but hold them in our communities to grow a fully buffet of offerings.

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Zeon

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Reply # 685611 13-Sep-2012 14:31

There was a pricing model recently for a UFB ISP in Whangarei. The cost of backhaul from Whangarei to Auckland was like half the bandwidth cost.

While there are quite a few competitors is anything realistically going to change there?

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