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  Reply # 716069 12-Nov-2012 20:55
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I assume there are variations for when the ISP has their own equipment in an exchange. For example, I am rural Hawkes Bay and Slingshot bundles are $10 dearer for me than Hastings which are the same as their national "Better Network" prices.

Either way bundle pricing has been heading south which is good for all consumers.

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  Reply # 716075 12-Nov-2012 21:18
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Behodar:
freitasm: That was back then, when the telcos set the prices and Telecom owned the infrastructure.

Copper prices are now set by the Commerce Commission, Telecom doesn't own the copper, doesn't have any interest on Chorus, so things are very different from six years ago.

Did the ComCom actually decide on the prices independently, or by using the old Telecom prices as a starting point?


A lot of Commerce Commission wholesale pricing was benchmarked using retail minus calculations. The flawed reliance on that is a key factor in the Commerce Commission historically doing a great job crippling broadband in New Zealand.

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  Reply # 716076 12-Nov-2012 21:19
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stuzzo: I assume there are variations for when the ISP has their own equipment in an exchange. For example, I am rural Hawkes Bay and Slingshot bundles are $10 dearer for me than Hastings which are the same as their national "Better Network" prices.

Either way bundle pricing has been heading south which is good for all consumers.


If an ISP has equipment in an exchange the wholesale ULL copper costs are significantly cheaper than the cost of a naked EUBA connection.

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  Reply # 716083 12-Nov-2012 21:45
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Wait, so did the comcom then set the prices for auckland/wellington/christchurch to be cheaper for telecom? (Or chorus). If not, then it'll be because there's telstraclear cable/POTS there. (Or ULL gear in Auckland)

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  Reply # 716114 12-Nov-2012 23:06
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kyhwana2: Wait, so did the comcom then set the prices for auckland/wellington/christchurch to be cheaper for telecom? (Or chorus). If not, then it'll be because there's telstraclear cable/POTS there. (Or ULL gear in Auckland)


Okay so now we are talking about two different things here

1) The price of a POTS telephone service from Telecom Wholesale - a service that has been offered since before unbundling took place
2) The price of a service offered over an unbundled line using the ISP's own equipment.

The majority of the auckland/wellington/chch discount is because the service provider is selling a landline that is wholesales through chorus / telecom and is subject to the discount because it is in a telstra clear Cable area.
Your landline service would be connected to the NEAX exchange systems in this case.


Pretty much all other area-based discounts are based on the ISP having their own dslam in the exchange and renting the copper from chorus, to pass on a saving to you. They probably run their own telephone system to make this happen when offered as a double/triple play deal. This is where the Vodafone Red network, Slingshot Better Network, Orcon unbundled areas etc come into play.
The cost of renting the copper from chorus used to cost an extra $10 per month in a rural or semi-rural area which would cause the rural/urban difference, but i -think- the commerce commission decided to balance the costs to there is no difference any more but not all companies have reflected this in their pricing.

So

1) The isp has purchased a telecom plain landline as has been offered for the last 50 years. It is subject to regulations and a discount in the auckland/wellington/chch suburbs where telstra clear run a Cable network.
The broadband is delivered across your line by telecom, who backhaul it to the ISP's network for them.

2) The ISP has installed their own dslam and telephone equipment into the exchange and is only renting the copper loop from chorus. They may have lower costs than the above service, and so they can choose to offer discounts in areas where they run their own equipment. The ISP is responsible for serving the broadband and backhaul it to their data centre however they choose.




Ray Taylor
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cisconz
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  Reply # 716153 13-Nov-2012 07:57
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Please be careful when posting that you post the correct company owning the equipment.

raytaylor: Okay so now we are talking about two different things here

1) The price of a POTS telephone service from Chorus - a service that has been offered since before unbundling took place
2) The price of a service offered over an unbundled line using the ISP's own equipment.

[snip]

1) The isp has purchased a Chorus plain landline as has been offered for the last 50 years. It is subject to regulations and a discount in the auckland/wellington/chch suburbs where telstra clear run a Cable network.
The broadband is delivered across your line by telecom, who backhaul it to the ISP's network for them.

2) The ISP has installed their own dslam and telephone equipment into the exchange and is only renting the copper loop from chorus. They may have lower costs than the above service, and so they can choose to offer discounts in areas where they run their own equipment. The ISP is responsible for serving the broadband and backhaul it to their data centre however they choose.


Chorus own the NEAX as well as the copper, Telecom only own the cell network and ISP (not the Dslam's or Isam's)




Hmmmm


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  Reply # 716158 13-Nov-2012 08:19
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cisconz: Please be careful when posting that you post the correct company owning the equipment.

raytaylor: Okay so now we are talking about two different things here

1) The price of a POTS telephone service from Chorus - a service that has been offered since before unbundling took place
2) The price of a service offered over an unbundled line using the ISP's own equipment.

[snip]

1) The isp has purchased a Chorus plain landline as has been offered for the last 50 years. It is subject to regulations and a discount in the auckland/wellington/chch suburbs where telstra clear run a Cable network.
The broadband is delivered across your line by telecom, who backhaul it to the ISP's network for them.

2) The ISP has installed their own dslam and telephone equipment into the exchange and is only renting the copper loop from chorus. They may have lower costs than the above service, and so they can choose to offer discounts in areas where they run their own equipment. The ISP is responsible for serving the broadband and backhaul it to their data centre however they choose.


Chorus own the NEAX as well as the copper, Telecom only own the cell network and ISP (not the Dslam's or Isam's)


My understanding is that Telecom own the NEAX's. Copper, ISAM's and buildings are all Chorus.

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  Reply # 716169 13-Nov-2012 08:37
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sbiddle:
cisconz: Please be careful when posting that you post the correct company owning the equipment.

raytaylor: Okay so now we are talking about two different things here

1) The price of a POTS telephone service from Chorus - a service that has been offered since before unbundling took place
2) The price of a service offered over an unbundled line using the ISP's own equipment.

[snip]

1) The isp has purchased a Chorus plain landline as has been offered for the last 50 years. It is subject to regulations and a discount in the auckland/wellington/chch suburbs where telstra clear run a Cable network.
The broadband is delivered across your line by telecom, who backhaul it to the ISP's network for them.

2) The ISP has installed their own dslam and telephone equipment into the exchange and is only renting the copper loop from chorus. They may have lower costs than the above service, and so they can choose to offer discounts in areas where they run their own equipment. The ISP is responsible for serving the broadband and backhaul it to their data centre however they choose.


Chorus own the NEAX as well as the copper, Telecom only own the cell network and ISP (not the Dslam's or Isam's)


My understanding is that Telecom own the NEAX's. Copper, ISAM's and buildings are all Chorus.


Not what I got told by Chorus this morning, but i could be wrong




Hmmmm


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  Reply # 716171 13-Nov-2012 08:42
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Telecom still own the central office switches (NEAX)




Regards,

Old3eyes




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  Reply # 716637 13-Nov-2012 19:26
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Thanks everybody for your replies. I'm afraid tho as a layman my conclusion is that there is no basis now for the $10 price difference as it would appear to be an historical anomoly that with competition today should no longer be in place.

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  Reply # 716640 13-Nov-2012 19:29
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If that's what you think, complain to the government then as the Commerce Commission is responsible for setting the price.




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  Reply # 716651 13-Nov-2012 19:43
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clod: Thanks everybody for your replies. I'm afraid tho as a layman my conclusion is that there is no basis now for the $10 price difference as it would appear to be an historical anomoly that with competition today should no longer be in place.


That's what you might think, but it's not the reality of the real world. The telco industry is one of the most regulated industries in NZ with the pricing of many key products and offerings set by the Commerce Commission.

My suggestion to you is to write a letter to the Telecommunications Regulator as he's the person ultimately responsible for setting the wholesale pricing of copper based products. Public submissions are always welcome.

My personal view is that services in rural areas should cost more than metropolitan areas.

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  Reply # 716687 13-Nov-2012 20:57
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Ah, cummon, rural telecommunications isn't that expensive.

Cost of building phone line Clifton Station to Clive (7 miles)........31 pounds
Annual line maintainence Clive to Napier...........16 pounds

1903 prices!


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  Reply # 716718 13-Nov-2012 21:48
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sbiddle:
clod: Thanks everybody for your replies. I'm afraid tho as a layman my conclusion is that there is no basis now for the $10 price difference as it would appear to be an historical anomoly that with competition today should no longer be in place.


That's what you might think, but it's not the reality of the real world. The telco industry is one of the most regulated industries in NZ with the pricing of many key products and offerings set by the Commerce Commission.

My suggestion to you is to write a letter to the Telecommunications Regulator as he's the person ultimately responsible for setting the wholesale pricing of copper based products. Public submissions are always welcome.

My personal view is that services in rural areas should cost more than metropolitan areas.


I was quoted between $500- $1000 to get them to connect us in a rural location, yet we have the wiring installed to the telephone line connection on the road, and it is on SH2. I think that is excessively high. We won't be connecting and using mobile instead, which has no connection costs, and it is better value. If we did pay that sort of fee to connect, we would be subsidizing those who are way out in the country, where it would be far more expensive to connect, but they still pay that $500-$1000 fee. The gov should should be encouraging more people to live further out of the cities, as currently there is a housing shortage and unsustainable high house prices in places like auckland. Currently the cost of living in county areas can be very high.

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  Reply # 716723 13-Nov-2012 22:10
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mattwnz: [snip]

I was quoted between $500- $1000 to get them to connect us in a rural location, yet we have the wiring installed to the telephone line connection on the road, and it is on SH2. I think that is excessively high. We won't be connecting and using mobile instead, which has no connection costs, and it is better value. If we did pay that sort of fee to connect, we would be subsidizing those who are way out in the country, where it would be far more expensive to connect, but they still pay that $500-$1000 fee. The gov should should be encouraging more people to live further out of the cities, as currently there is a housing shortage and unsustainable high house prices in places like auckland. Currently the cost of living in county areas can be very high.


So hang on...

- You received a quote of $500-$1000 for connection but felt this was too high since you're close to the road and have some of the wiring in place already.
- You don't want to pay this because you would be subsidising people "way out in the country"

Presumably this means that you think it's unfair for people in cities to subsidise even your rural connection? So what's the problem? Presumably you're complaining because you're on the losing side of the threshold - unfortunately there are always cases like yours. But there will be people where it costs much more than $1000 to connect and they may not be able to afford the full price, but the subsidised price might work.

And as for the govt encouraging people to live in the country? That's just fantasy with no basis in logic or fact. When someone lives in the country, they are, on average, further from every single service they need, and every thing the consume (electricity, communications, petrol, food, water, sewerage, garbage collection etc etc etc will cost more.

I really don't think I have to explain economies of scale! :-)

Cheers - N


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