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  #801789 18-Apr-2013 17:32
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mercutio:[snip]

*cough* reminds me of adsl and the 0867 debacle ... telecom were hitting overloading issues apparently so they wanted to charge to call your isp.  i seem to remember something like you got 20 hours of calling, then it was going to cost heaps?  but it struck lots of fud into the somewhat growing internet market in nz... 



I presume you mean dialup, not ADSL. Yes I remember it well (not as a Telecom employee then though!).

As usual though, people weren't interested in balanced stories.

Cheers - N





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Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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  #801791 18-Apr-2013 17:42
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Talkiet:
mercutio:[snip]

*cough* reminds me of adsl and the 0867 debacle ... telecom were hitting overloading issues apparently so they wanted to charge to call your isp.  i seem to remember something like you got 20 hours of calling, then it was going to cost heaps?  but it struck lots of fud into the somewhat growing internet market in nz... 



I presume you mean dialup, not ADSL. Yes I remember it well (not as a Telecom employee then though!).

As usual though, people weren't interested in balanced stories.

Cheers - N



oh oops, brain fart... yes.. 

i was one of those users that stayed connected a lot, and constantly wondered when nz was going to get proper internet connections for home users. (back then on dialup it was common to lag out a connection by doing a single download... bad enough for people to start that internet is unusable on somewehre like here)

i think it was '99 that it came in.

 
 
 
 


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  #801792 18-Apr-2013 17:56
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What I /want/ to see is gigabit to the home.  But in practical reality what kind of uplink are you going to use for gigabit to every home?  10 gigabit hasn't come down to the price that 1 gigabit was 10 years ago.  And there's a real cost of servers/router/infrastructure to properly support gigabit to every user.

It's simpler in google's case because they don't have to meet requirements for level of service etc.  They can just do the whole thing best-efforts.  And at the end of the day I see 300 megabit as more reasonable to aim for in NZ than 1 gigabit, which will be a lot easier to do after infrastructure is improved, more dark fibre used etc.  And even then you're not going to get 300 megabit internationally.


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  #801801 18-Apr-2013 18:24
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This might inform the cost-based discussion somewhat: Jon Brewer's back-of-the-envelope what it would cost to run a small UFB ISP

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  #801802 18-Apr-2013 18:26
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deadlyllama: This might inform the cost-based discussion somewhat: Jon Brewer's back-of-the-envelope what it would cost to run a small UFB ISP


Those prices are hilariously OTT and quite out of touch with reality




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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  #801817 18-Apr-2013 18:45
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Beccara:
deadlyllama: This might inform the cost-based discussion somewhat: Jon Brewer's back-of-the-envelope what it would cost to run a small UFB ISP


Those prices are hilariously OTT and quite out of touch with reality


yeah his price on international was funny, but it was two years ago.. and prices have come down a little in that time.

also with someone of their scale, they may not want to have a sky tower pop, and instead just have a layer 2 link to sky tower.

also, for 1000 30/10 users on a small isp let's say they have 200 megabit bandwidth and pay $50/megabit rather than 500 megabit of bandwidth and pay $80/megabit.  if you're paying $80/megabit, you're not going to buy 500 megabit for 1000 low value users...  and they just said that 80% of their traffic is national anyway, so who's going to notice?  maybe a few torrent users?  shape them if they use too much. ..

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  #801819 18-Apr-2013 18:46
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Even then it's out of whack, including domestic and backhauling. I didn't even bother to look at his hardware costs but i'd say they are just as wrong




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

 
 
 
 


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  #801823 18-Apr-2013 18:51
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Beccara: Even then it's out of whack, including domestic and backhauling. I didn't even bother to look at his hardware costs but i'd say they are just as wrong


i didn't see hardware costs.  but he's jumping for 10 gigabit without going dark fibre from what i can tell, so it could be expensive... 

he could just have gone for 2 1 gigabit links with diverse paths instead.


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  #802178 19-Apr-2013 11:45
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mercutio:
Beccara: Even then it's out of whack, including domestic and backhauling. I didn't even bother to look at his hardware costs but i'd say they are just as wrong


i didn't see hardware costs.  but he's jumping for 10 gigabit without going dark fibre from what i can tell, so it could be expensive... 

he could just have gone for 2 1 gigabit links with diverse paths instead.



It's old, the numbers were put there to prove a point about providing a 2MBps CIR to all your customers, so they are going to be a bit unrealistic.  If you have access to more accurate pricing that you're willing to share, go ahead.  Most of those numbers live behind salespeople who are unlikely to tell interested members of the public with no interest in actually buying anything, how much bits of network will cost.  I'll take somewhat unrealistic over nothing at all any day.

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  #802186 19-Apr-2013 11:51
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mercutio:
Beccara:
deadlyllama: This might inform the cost-based discussion somewhat: Jon Brewer's back-of-the-envelope what it would cost to run a small UFB ISP


Those prices are hilariously OTT and quite out of touch with reality


yeah his price on international was funny, but it was two years ago.. and prices have come down a little in that time.

also with someone of their scale, they may not want to have a sky tower pop, and instead just have a layer 2 link to sky tower.

also, for 1000 30/10 users on a small isp let's say they have 200 megabit bandwidth and pay $50/megabit rather than 500 megabit of bandwidth and pay $80/megabit.  if you're paying $80/megabit, you're not going to buy 500 megabit for 1000 low value users...  and they just said that 80% of their traffic is national anyway, so who's going to notice?  maybe a few torrent users?  shape them if they use too much. ..


He is also missing out any of the other overheads of running an ISP, marketing, advertising costs, giving away $200 worth of stuff (free months, discount, free modem, free connection etc) to persuade people to move away from their existing ISP

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  #802206 19-Apr-2013 12:01
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deadlyllama:
mercutio:
Beccara: Even then it's out of whack, including domestic and backhauling. I didn't even bother to look at his hardware costs but i'd say they are just as wrong


i didn't see hardware costs.  but he's jumping for 10 gigabit without going dark fibre from what i can tell, so it could be expensive... 

he could just have gone for 2 1 gigabit links with diverse paths instead.



It's old, the numbers were put there to prove a point about providing a 2MBps CIR to all your customers, so they are going to be a bit unrealistic.  If you have access to more accurate pricing that you're willing to share, go ahead.  Most of those numbers live behind salespeople who are unlikely to tell interested members of the public with no interest in actually buying anything, how much bits of network will cost.  I'll take somewhat unrealistic over nothing at all any day.


Even old it's not real, These kinds of numbers floating around are dangerous, You can't say what ISP costs are because every ISP is different, We run in Northland therefor our costs are not impacted by backhaul cost changes in Southland yet they will massively impact a CHCH ISP. Giving some numbers accurate or not only serves to give people a false sense of understanding




Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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