Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6


310 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 930369 10-Nov-2013 19:42
One person supports this post
Send private message

Talkiet:
techmeister: [snip]
Then thing is from the point of view of an end uniformed user you can see that it is difficult to understand why other ISP's that have their own gear in the exchange  can do annex M and yet Chorus cannot, all I started this thread for was to find out why that is the case.
So to that end I will tell all my business customers and anyone else that if you are hooked up to exchange you should go with Callplus or Slingshot problem solved end of story.


Is it really difficult to understand that an extreme niche desire (in the context of widespread VDSL and expanding UFB coverage) for Annex M isn't an attractive investment to Chorus? Simply put there's zero chance they'll ever make back the investment of building the capability. I speak from a position of having a reasonable idea of what it would take to do it too.

Now, it's ok to be annoyed or upset there's a technological capability not being made available, that's completely reasonable and I understand that - but claiming you don't understand WHY a company wouldn't bother making an investment when they'll only ever lose money from it? That's hard for me to understand...

Cheers - N



If Chorus don't think it is worth the investment them that is that, others however have decided it is worth the investment.
So I will go with them.




Now on 2talk Network and it's better.





310 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 930372 10-Nov-2013 19:51
3 people support this post
Send private message

I really can't understand why all the hostility here for a simple technology question?




Now on 2talk Network and it's better.



 
 
 
 


4159 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 930373 10-Nov-2013 19:55
5 people support this post
Send private message

techmeister: I really can't understand why all the hostility here for a simple technology question?


At least some of the frustration stems from the issue that there are some relevant facts which are ignored and/or not accepted by the person posing the question. It's really hard to answer questions with that sort of constraint.

It's also tough when you're apparently fighting a belief that there's zero cost to offering a new product if the enabling technology is already in the network.

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.




310 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 930473 10-Nov-2013 23:16
One person supports this post
Send private message

Not fighting any such belief, If there is cost then there cost, a cost Chorus does not think worth their
while, I understand that.

Just asking a a perfectly rational question, from an end user perspective, who does not know that much hence why the question.
You really need to get over yourself.






Now on 2talk Network and it's better.



Mr Snotty
8767 posts

Uber Geek

Moderator
Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 930479 10-Nov-2013 23:47
2 people support this post
Send private message

techmeister: Not fighting any such belief, If there is cost then there cost, a cost Chorus does not think worth their
while, I understand that.

Just asking a a perfectly rational question, from an end user perspective, who does not know that much hence why the question.
You really need to get over yourself.


Serious dude? No need for that kind of talk. The question has been answered many times in this thread and all the previous threads posted on this subject by somebody currently posting in here. It's the fact both you and another person here don't want to let this one drop as a "Nope, never gonna happen, I'm just going to have to pay for my upload speed if I want it" situation.

Sorry dude, but before you make these claims you've just got to let the subject drop, thank people who have answered your question and just go with it. I know Neil have the answers but since they've been faced with this question from many people (and those people keep calling them liars), Neil and the other guys in this thread have extensive knowledge of how this all works and when they're called liars it just doesn't work all that well. It doesn't help that the same people come out of the shadows criticising them either about this particular subject.

So before you get all defensive just remember who you're talking to here. I think you and Kirdog owe an apology to Neil.




3481 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  # 930485 11-Nov-2013 01:52
Send private message

Well Chorus is listed now - feel free to buy up all the shares and u can started demanding changes such as these :p





202 posts

Master Geek


  # 930491 11-Nov-2013 03:41
Send private message

I think we finally declared that "annexM" is not fully technical problem as every technician explained before. I think chorus try to push clients to use VDSL or fiber, and they have stopped ADSL (developing) support, but i think it is not right way to do the business. 
      As i explained before, nowadays we upload huge amount of stuff to the servers located nationwide, and personally for me waiting time for upload 2 GB video(smallest size for my videos) to Russian server is huge amount of time: 3-5 hours (80-90 Kbytes/sec), thats huge and not good, i need to keep switched on my PC and draw another 600 watt for nothing.  I have bought HD web-camera 720p, and guess what? i can't use it in 720p mode, only in 480 with lags, sad. I can't host any game server for my friends, if more than 2 players will play, lags will happen. I can't send emails with attachments over 50 Megs, thats almost impossible, waiting for ages....  
so: fail fail fail fail. 

AnnexM will not solve the upload speed problem but will make live a bit easier, almost double upload speed, 170-200 Kbytes/sec. thats good. As i can see from SAT maps, 60% VDSL covering and 20% UFB (Auckland) 30-40% don't have ability to connect VDSL/UFB. Chorus should be more friendly with clients (my opinion). And personally for me $10-$25 per month for AnnexM is suitable extra price. 


All this post is my opinion :).
And sorry about my terrible English. 

michaelmurfy:
I think you and Kirdog owe an apology to Neil.


Agree.


I'm apologizing about my rude behavior on forum, sorry Neil.




Sorry about my English guys :>

 
 
 
 


1387 posts

Uber Geek


  # 930667 11-Nov-2013 13:05
Send private message

unfortunately chorus have a government created monopoly in new zealand.  you're not going to have any luck getting them to make changes that don't create direct profit for them.

and the government seems to keen to reinforce this monopoly, awarding most of their ufb contract to them, which overall discourages competition.  and if you're not in a UFB or VDSL area your only real option is 3G or 4G cellphone network to boost your upload speed, but with some increase in latency.

hopefully the cellphone networks will start allowing upload to be sent over them and downstream over adsl merging the two connections as one. (and reducing the latency spike that 3g/4g has)


Infrastructure Geek
4058 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Microsoft NZ
Subscriber

  # 930796 11-Nov-2013 15:56
Send private message

mercutio: unfortunately chorus have a government created monopoly in new zealand.  you're not going to have any luck getting them to make changes that don't create direct profit for them.


do any of the other LLU providers support annex M?  They're not likely to enable it if there isnt a direct profit involved either.




Technical Evangelist
Microsoft NZ
about.me/nzregs
Twitter: @nzregs


1387 posts

Uber Geek


  # 930798 11-Nov-2013 15:57
Send private message

Regs:
mercutio: unfortunately chorus have a government created monopoly in new zealand.  you're not going to have any luck getting them to make changes that don't create direct profit for them.


do any of the other LLU providers support annex M?  They're not likely to enable it if there isnt a direct profit involved either.


afaik vodafone and slingshot both support it, but no-one is doing llu on cabinets.

i dunno if orcon are or are not doing it.  i've got no idea what telstraclear are doing at all for llu.

i think slingshot enable it by default, and vodafone you have to ask for it to be enabled, but i'm not exactly sure.  quick searching on vodafone suggests johnr saying that it's not supported and tima saying that "if he did enable it",. so probably worth pm'ing tima if on vodafone to see if he can enable it :)


18 posts

Geek


  # 934074 14-Nov-2013 20:42
4 people support this post
Send private message

Anyone that goes around saying Annex M is being used by x ISP without causing problems is being ignorant or mischievous.

ADSL is an adaptive technoloy, it determines the bit loading per bin as the SNR allows (+SNR Margin of course).


So you could get your Annex M from Slingshot and dance about the house naked celebrating faster uploading then ring the neighbour and ask if his broadband still works and he'll say "yep".


What you don't realise is that Annex M has raised the noise floor in adjacent cable binder pairs for the overlapping bins (frequency range where you are now transmitting but they are receiving).  This has actual, definite consequences , no ifs, buts, or maybes.  The consequence is subtle and therefore arguably more sinister.  Your neighbour just lost some bits on his bins.  How many bits of course is highly dependent on the parameters involved (so from "a few" to "more than a few"). 

My question to the person demanding Annex M - who are you to deny your neighbours those bits, however many or few they may be?



1387 posts

Uber Geek


  # 934107 14-Nov-2013 21:30
One person supports this post
Send private message

createcoms: Anyone that goes around saying Annex M is being used by x ISP without causing problems is being ignorant or mischievous.

ADSL is an adaptive technoloy, it determines the bit loading per bin as the SNR allows (+SNR Margin of course).


So you could get your Annex M from Slingshot and dance about the house naked celebrating faster uploading then ring the neighbour and ask if his broadband still works and he'll say "yep".


What you don't realise is that Annex M has raised the noise floor in adjacent cable binder pairs for the overlapping bins (frequency range where you are now transmitting but they are receiving).  This has actual, definite consequences , no ifs, buts, or maybes.  The consequence is subtle and therefore arguably more sinister.  Your neighbour just lost some bits on his bins.  How many bits of course is highly dependent on the parameters involved (so from "a few" to "more than a few"). 

My question to the person demanding Annex M - who are you to deny your neighbours those bits, however many or few they may be?




the problem is that in various parts of life there are people getting in the way, slowing down progress etc.  People being slow to make decisions, people paying bills late, people driving 40k in a 70k area, people not indicating etc.

It's just the way life goes, and I think you have to look at the bigger picture, and see that overall it's more beneficial to give more even if there is some loss in the ability to take.  It benefits others when people don't block driveways when someone is signaling to come out onto the non congested side of the road, and if there's congestion, then it's not actually going to make any difference if waiting to let someone else through.

A lot of download "megabits" is unutilised, at the best of times, and at the worst of times.  And is it more benefical for people to upload photos and videos or view others photos and videos.  In order to download, someone must upload.  And the more you take upload away from normal users and only give it to privileged users in "UFB" areas you create artificial barriers, advantaging the rich, and disadvantaging the poor.

Frequency is shared, somewhat like roads.  It's reasonably easy to understand that congestion slows down progress, but I think a lot of people just get used to the idea that uploading videos over the internet is slow, that using Skype video conferencing on shared internet can impact other users in the house.  If intelliigence was applied there'd be higher/better compression, and resizing before uploading.  There'd be using audio rather than video for Skype, there'd be more cc'ing in emails rather than individually mailing people pictures, etc.  But that changes the way people do things.  And not everyone likes change, or to use more advanced solutions.

The question is, is the benefit worth the disadvantage it may cause others.

Say everyone was using Annex M, and median speeds changed from 10megabit/1 megabit, to 8 megabit/2megabit, would that overall be beneficial or detrimental?  To my mind, I'd think it is benefical, but to find out the real numbers, real world testing would need to be done, and the impact on marignal connections would need to be looked at.  

1375 posts

Uber Geek


  # 934145 14-Nov-2013 22:54
Send private message

Yeah it all depends on the constraints you want to put on the unconstrained local loop. No where does it state annex M is not allowed. No one is guaranteed anything.
No doubt I think it was the right decision to unbundle and go unconstrained... reminds me of some of the arguments Telecom made for 3.5M vs unconstrained back then.
Another step further we may as well go back to tiered bandwidth... 256/128 3.5M/512 maybe then Kirdog can finally pay more for annex M ;)

1387 posts

Uber Geek


  # 934168 15-Nov-2013 06:51
Send private message

yitz: Yeah it all depends on the constraints you want to put on the unconstrained local loop. No where does it state annex M is not allowed. No one is guaranteed anything.
No doubt I think it was the right decision to unbundle and go unconstrained... reminds me of some of the arguments Telecom made for 3.5M vs unconstrained back then.
Another step further we may as well go back to tiered bandwidth... 256/128 3.5M/512 maybe then Kirdog can finally pay more for annex M ;)


years back telecom had 192kbit upload, other isp's had 128kbit upload, so i used telecom.  sync was  7616 down iirc, so 128kbit upload tends to get in the way of even download traffic.



310 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 941740 27-Nov-2013 13:56
Send private message




So before you get all defensive just remember who you're talking to here. I think you and Kirdog owe an apology to Neil.


Yes, sorry for the late reply been busy.
I do apologise to Neil it was said in anger and was not called for, please accept my apology.
I do accept that it is not worth Chorus time and money to do annex M never said it was.
and thanks to all that answered the question.

Please don't make me responsible for Kirdog's comments as he has hijacked my thread. 





Now on 2talk Network and it's better.



1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Switch your broadband provider now - compare prices


Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Intel expands 10th Gen Intel Core Mobile processor family
Posted 23-Aug-2019 10:22


Digital innovation drives new investment provider
Posted 23-Aug-2019 08:29


Catalyst Cloud becomes a Kubernetes Certified Service Provider (KCSP)
Posted 23-Aug-2019 08:21


New AI legaltech product launched in New Zealand
Posted 21-Aug-2019 17:01


Yubico launches first Lightning-compatible security key, the YubiKey 5Ci
Posted 21-Aug-2019 16:46


Disney+ streaming service confirmed launch in New Zealand
Posted 20-Aug-2019 09:29


Industry plan could create a billion dollar interactive games sector
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:41


Personal cyber insurance a New Zealand first
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:26


University of Waikato launches space for esports
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:20


D-Link ANZ expands mydlink ecosystem with new mydlink Mini Wi-Fi Smart Plug
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:14


Kiwi workers still falling victim to old cyber tricks
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:47


Lightning Lab GovTech launches 2019 programme
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:41


Epson launches portable laser projector
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:27


Huawei launches new distributed HarmonyOS
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:20


Lenovo introduces single-socket servers for edge and data-intensive workloads
Posted 9-Aug-2019 21:26



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.