mercutio:
createcoms: Anyone that goes around saying Annex M is being used by x ISP without causing problems is being ignorant or mischievous.

ADSL is an adaptive technoloy, it determines the bit loading per bin as the SNR allows (+SNR Margin of course).


So you could get your Annex M from Slingshot and dance about the house naked celebrating faster uploading then ring the neighbour and ask if his broadband still works and he'll say "yep".


What you don't realise is that Annex M has raised the noise floor in adjacent cable binder pairs for the overlapping bins (frequency range where you are now transmitting but they are receiving).  This has actual, definite consequences , no ifs, buts, or maybes.  The consequence is subtle and therefore arguably more sinister.  Your neighbour just lost some bits on his bins.  How many bits of course is highly dependent on the parameters involved (so from "a few" to "more than a few"). 

My question to the person demanding Annex M - who are you to deny your neighbours those bits, however many or few they may be?




the problem is that in various parts of life there are people getting in the way, slowing down progress etc.  People being slow to make decisions, people paying bills late, people driving 40k in a 70k area, people not indicating etc.

It's just the way life goes, and I think you have to look at the bigger picture, and see that overall it's more beneficial to give more even if there is some loss in the ability to take.  It benefits others when people don't block driveways when someone is signaling to come out onto the non congested side of the road, and if there's congestion, then it's not actually going to make any difference if waiting to let someone else through.

A lot of download "megabits" is unutilised, at the best of times, and at the worst of times.  And is it more benefical for people to upload photos and videos or view others photos and videos.  In order to download, someone must upload.  And the more you take upload away from normal users and only give it to privileged users in "UFB" areas you create artificial barriers, advantaging the rich, and disadvantaging the poor.

Frequency is shared, somewhat like roads.  It's reasonably easy to understand that congestion slows down progress, but I think a lot of people just get used to the idea that uploading videos over the internet is slow, that using Skype video conferencing on shared internet can impact other users in the house.  If intelliigence was applied there'd be higher/better compression, and resizing before uploading.  There'd be using audio rather than video for Skype, there'd be more cc'ing in emails rather than individually mailing people pictures, etc.  But that changes the way people do things.  And not everyone likes change, or to use more advanced solutions.

The question is, is the benefit worth the disadvantage it may cause others.

Say everyone was using Annex M, and median speeds changed from 10megabit/1 megabit, to 8 megabit/2megabit, would that overall be beneficial or detrimental?  To my mind, I'd think it is benefical, but to find out the real numbers, real world testing would need to be done, and the impact on marignal connections would need to be looked at.  


And "who" exactly is going to pay to ensure every one of the other 1.6 Million DSL subscribers connected to the Chorus network apart from you have:

A) A compatible modem that supports Annex-M, if they don't are you going to pay to purchase new modems and work out the logistics of getting new modems to people who need one? I would easily guesstimate over 200k modems out there wouldn't support Annex M.
B) Ensure modem compatibility for the modems that say they do support Annex-M since just because they say they support Annex-M doesn't mean it will work.
C) Setup a "Chorus" helpdesk to deal with the issues, or make each ISP deal with the likely calls that will occur from this swapover / change.

When you have made a change that impacts 100k customers we can talk. When you have made a successful change that impacts 1Million + Customers without impact after *MANY MONTHS* of planning... Then you will understand this is not a "cheap" or "easy" thing to do.