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  # 1007065 17-Mar-2014 09:48
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trig42: Ooh, another (slightly OT) question, but I know people who know this stuff will be viewing this thread - If you install a splitter at the ETP, can you use a single run of Cat5/6 to run the split pairs down? In other words, connect the DSL pair to (say) the orange pair in the cable and the voice pair to the blue pair in the same cable? I imagine it's fine, but just checking.


Yes. If running a new cable run is complex it's common to see a master filter installed in an ETP and the existing wiring used to carry the DSL signal around the premises to a new jack installed next to an existing BT jack. You simply need to follow the cabling through each existing jack and use scotchlok connectors to join the pair that is used. This isn't the preferable solution though, as more connections can be a cause of issues.


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  # 1007066 17-Mar-2014 09:49
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fahrenheit:
trig42: You can install a master splitter yourself, you just cant touch anything before the ETP.


Thanks for clearing that up.

My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them.
Wish I'd been around when the place was being built.

That is pretty awful for DSL performance, but the splitter should sort it if installed correctly. You would leave the 10 jacks as they are, install another one for DSL only. Put the splitter before the first Jack in the chain - blue pair to that jack, then the green pair connected to wherever you put the DSL jack (could be anywhere, just have to run a cable to it).

 
 
 
 


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  # 1007088 17-Mar-2014 10:12
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fahrenheit:
trig42: You can install a master splitter yourself, you just cant touch anything before the ETP.


Thanks for clearing that up.

My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them.
Wish I'd been around when the place was being built.


10 years old - it should have been star




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  # 1007092 17-Mar-2014 10:19
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Zeon: 10 years old - it should have been star


Absolutely. Was the sparkies fault.

I ended up installing a Vigor 120 within three feet of the ETP on its own cable and then ran 25 meters of CAT6 to the router in the lounge. The daisy chain is just left for pots now.

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  # 1007178 17-Mar-2014 11:32
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fahrenheit: ... My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them. ...

That is a ridiculous number - I think that the maximum number recommended for POTS was 5.
This would make ADSL without a master filter unusable.
"Subscriber telephone lines are usually limited to support a load of 5 REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) or less."




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  # 1007179 17-Mar-2014 11:34
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Sideface:
fahrenheit: ... My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them. ...

That is a ridiculous number - I think that the maximum number recommended for POTS was 5.
This would make ADSL without a master filter unusable.
"Subscriber telephone lines are usually limited to support a load of 5 REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) or less."


i'm assuming he won't have more htan a few phones with ringers on.  that'd be hell.  some phones have low REN too.

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  # 1007187 17-Mar-2014 11:43
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Sideface:
fahrenheit: ... My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them. ...

That is a ridiculous number - I think that the maximum number recommended for POTS was 5.
This would make ADSL without a master filter unusable.
"Subscriber telephone lines are usually limited to support a load of 5 REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) or less."


Oh they had a master filter. They had a monitored alarm also attached to that mess (where that was spliced into, I have no idea).
But because of the illogical sequence of the daisy-chain, the ADSL ended up being on the sixth jack in the chain.
The irony is that as soon as they moved in, they bought a set of DECT phones and only two jacks in the house were used for pots.

I replaced the old two wire master splitter with a new three wire one when I installed the Vigor.
The only thing left to do is to disconnect the unused jacks, but they don't have any call quality issues, so its not urgent.

 
 
 
 


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  # 1007677 17-Mar-2014 21:02
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Thanks everyone for their help. I think this has given me enough to be going on with - particularly not letting the electrician touch anything else.

Anyone care to recommend a phone tech in Wellington that would be able to sort the mess out? Or am I better off going back to Mr Chorus?

mdf



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  # 1016556 1-Apr-2014 13:37
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If I can reactivate this one, can anyone tell me what a demarcation point is? And who's responsible for it?

From context, the demarcation point is where the cable from the road meets the house? Sound about right? Does this count as internal or external wiring?

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  # 1016597 1-Apr-2014 14:17
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mdf: If I can reactivate this one, can anyone tell me what a demarcation point is? And who's responsible for it?

From context, the demarcation point is where the cable from the road meets the house? Sound about right? Does this count as internal or external wiring?


It depends which PTC you read (seriously, I've posted about this before, different PTCs give different definitions and I never got a clear answer from anyone).

The only definition that is common, is that if you have an external termination point (a little covered box on the side of the house) then the demarcation point is there, the run to the exchange from that point is Chorus' responsibility, anything on the house side of that point is yours (i.e. if you want Chorus to fix wiring on that side, you need to either pay them, or the work needs to be covered under wiring and maintenance).

If you don't have an ETP, then as I recall the conflicting definitions basically seem to be, either, the first jackpoint (where the lead-in runs to) (PTC 103) or where the lead-in is in your walls (PTC 106(?)).  But the unofficial opinion that we heard is that basically if you want to make the location of the first jackpoint earlier in the lead-in (as long as it's in your house) then you can.

n.b. I'm writing this from memory, my recommendation, read PTC 103 and 106, take note of the introductions to both, and look at the definitions of demarcation point and try and make up your own mind, because there is one thing I'm sure of, the Telcos don't know, and the Chorus techs don't know.  (Although Chorus techs that have seen our wiring after effectively moving the demarc point to the garage haven't batted an eyelid at it, so obviously don't care).

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  # 1016609 1-Apr-2014 14:44
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nigelj:
If you don't have an ETP, then as I recall the conflicting definitions basically seem to be, either, the first jackpoint (where the lead-in runs to) (PTC 103) or where the lead-in is in your walls (PTC 106(?)).  But the unofficial opinion that we heard is that basically if you want to make the location of the first jackpoint earlier in the lead-in (as long as it's in your house) then you can.

n.b. I'm writing this from memory, my recommendation, read PTC 103 and 106, take note of the introductions to both, and look at the definitions of demarcation point and try and make up your own mind, because there is one thing I'm sure of, the Telcos don't know, and the Chorus techs don't know.  (Although Chorus techs that have seen our wiring after effectively moving the demarc point to the garage haven't batted an eyelid at it, so obviously don't care).


PTC 103 would have reflected the position at the time. A lot of connections didn't have an external termination point.

I'd imagine any problems would be resolved by installing one.

To say that Telcos and Chorus techs don't know is strange as there is a Telecommunications Carriers Forum Premises Wiring Code of Practice replacing the Telecom PTCs that they've all signed up to. The demarcation wording seems pretty much PTC 103.

Find it here http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/dc07abcd-21f8-4288-b55b-6f861bdd4d02.html

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  # 1016880 1-Apr-2014 22:44
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mdf: If I can reactivate this one, can anyone tell me what a demarcation point is? And who's responsible for it?

From context, the demarcation point is where the cable from the road meets the house? Sound about right? Does this count as internal or external wiring?




The Demarc Point is just that the demarcation between the External and Internal network and can be considered as part of both.

In a residential situation the Demarc is the Telecom/Chorus installed External Test Point.  In practice, if one isnt installed it is the first point the incoming service lead joins the internal cableing - ie either the first jackpoint or the first join or connection on the incoming cable.

In general Chorus is responsible for the physical demarc point and the incoming cable and the interconnections within. 

In saying that it is debateable as to who is responsible for the connections inside it to the internal cableing but generaly 'The last person responsiblity rule' is applied - eg if a chorus service tech was the last person to make a connection/reconnection and it is not up to good work practice (or goes faulty over time etc) then a chorus tech will repair, put it right etc at no charge but if a non chorus service tech was the last person to work in the ETP and something is found to be wrong inside it then a charge may apply to fix it.

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