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856 posts

Ultimate Geek


# 142603 18-Mar-2014 15:05
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Hi folks,

I'm curious about people who have tried to get (or successfully got) VDSL, when originally told that VDSL might be out of range and their experiences.

My situation is that I'm approximately 900m (by road, and cable) from a just upgraded (2-3 weeks ago) RBI Cabinet.

Telecom's & Orcon's address checkers both show VDSL as available (although Telecom then explain that it's possible that on the day, it may be found to be unavailable), Snap's address checker shows it as Indeterminate, and Slingshot & Vodafone's address checkers show it as not available (Slingshot's theory is that their database is out of date and they would be able to request installation,  Vodafone actually originally said it was available according to one system (I'm guessing Chorus' auto-prequal, but wouldn't talk any further because the billing system apparently said no-way!).

Telecom & Snap ran the auto pre-qual which apparently returned a Loop Attenuation of 3-14db, Snap were the only ones that offered to request a manual pre-qual check of the line which apparently returned 8-9db which is apparently 'right on the edge'.

The thing is, I've seen modem stat pages posted here of VDSL installs showing Loop Attenuation around the 14-16db bracket with decent-ish looking speeds compared to ADSL, which happens to be the ADSL attenuation bracket I'm in at the moment.

So my questions are:

General:
 a) What is the difference between the 'Loop Attenuation' that Chorus pre-qual with, and the 'Loop Attenuation' that VDSL modems report
 b) Is attenuation on an ADSL line representative of the attenuation that will be reported on a VDSL line
Specific:
 c) If you've been in the same/similar boat as me, if you were told, what were the pre-qual results, and how did they compare to what you are getting now


For completeness, current situation:

TP-Link Modem:

            Downstream    Upstream

SNR Margin: 10.8          12.2 db
Line Attenuation: 16.0    10.1 db
Data Rate:  14200         938 kbps
Max Rate:   16728         938 kbps
POWER:      19.1          11.3 dbm
CRC:        0             0

Telecom Modem:

            Downstream    Upstream

SNR Margin: 12.5          17 db
Line Attenuation: 14.5    8.5 db
Data Rate:  13481         945 kbps
Max Rate:   14720         945 kbps
POWER:      11.5          12.0 dbm
CRC:        0             0


Additionally, a proper VDSL compatible splitter is already installed, with Cat 5e and PDL RJ-45 jack, results don't differ much/at all if the complete house wiring is disconnected either.

Thoughts/experiences/etc welcome.

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5722 posts

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  # 1008137 18-Mar-2014 15:05
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Hello... Our robot found some keywords in your post, so here is an automated reply with some important things to note regarding broadband speeds.

 



 

If you are posting regarding DSL speeds please check that

 



 

- you have reset your modem and router

 


 

- your PC (or other PCs in your LAN) is not downloading large files when you are testing

 

- you are not being throttled by your ISP due to going over the monthly cap

 


 

- your tests are always done on an ethernet connection to the router - do not use wireless for testing

 


 

- you read this topic and follow the instructions there.

 



 

Make sure you provide information for other users to help you. If you have not already done it, please EDIT your post and add this now:

 



 

- Your ISP and plan

 


 

- Type of connection (ADSL, ADSL2, VDSL)

 


 

- Your modem DSL stats (do not worry about posting Speedtest, we need sync rate, attenuation and noise margin)

 


 

- Your general location (or street)

 


 

- If you are rural or urban

 


 

- If you know your connection is to an exchange, cabinet or conklin

 


 

- If your connection is to a ULL or wholesale service

 


 

- If you have done an isolation test as per the link above

 



 

Most of the problems with speed are likely to be related to internal wiring issues. Read this discussion to find out more about this. Your ISP is not intentionally slowing you down today (unless you are on a managed plan). Also if this is the school holidays it's likely you will notice slower than usual speed due to more users online.

 



 

A master splitter is required for VDSL2 and in most cases will improve speeds on DSL connections. Regular disconnections can be a monitored alarm or a set top box trying to connect. If there's an alarm connected to your line even if you don't have an alarm contract it may still try to connect so it's worth checking.

 



 

I recommend you read these two blog posts:

 



 

- Is your premises phone wiring impacting your broadband performance? (very technical)

 


 

- Are you receiving a substandard ULL ADSL2+ connection from your ISP?




I am the Geekzone Robot and I am here to help. I am from the Internet. I do not interact. Do not expect other replies from me.



1948 posts

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  # 1008148 18-Mar-2014 15:19
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I would trust the Telecom TG582n with this value, as not all modems were created equal:

Line Attenuation: 14.5

So.. yes you are marginal but you may get away with it. If you are a Telecom customer I can run a proper line test, otherwise just ring up and ask for it to be connected. Should end up with about 25mb or so if the numbers work out.

 
 
 
 




856 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1008150 18-Mar-2014 15:25
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plambrechtsen: I would trust the Telecom TG582n with this value, as not all modems were created equal:

Line Attenuation: 14.5


Yeah, so I've got about 4 modems, they all appear to report between 14 & 16db

So.. yes you are marginal but you may get away with it. If you are a Telecom customer I can run a proper line test, otherwise just ring up and ask for it to be connected. Should end up with about 25mb or so if the numbers work out.


Proper line test, as in the Manual Pre-qualification that Snap did or some other sort of test?

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  # 1008165 18-Mar-2014 15:37
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nigelj:
plambrechtsen: I would trust the Telecom TG582n with this value, as not all modems were created equal:

Line Attenuation: 14.5


Yeah, so I've got about 4 modems, they all appear to report between 14 & 16db

So.. yes you are marginal but you may get away with it. If you are a Telecom customer I can run a proper line test, otherwise just ring up and ask for it to be connected. Should end up with about 25mb or so if the numbers work out.


Proper line test, as in the Manual Pre-qualification that Snap did or some other sort of test?


Proper Extended Line Test aka LQD Line test in SPM that runs for 24 hours, and after it's done gives you some pretty graphs which are scraped out of 5530NA.

With those, and knowing that you already have a master filter installed they should be able to tell you if you can get VDSL. That is assuming they know what to look for when reading the LQD results. It's a bit of an art-form reading those graphs and knowing what they mean. :)

306 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1008171 18-Mar-2014 15:42
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Being in a rural area vdsl goes abit further is the gauge of the copper in the ground is a bit thicl then in town so the signal can go a bit further :) but im saying that itll no doubt be affected by electric fences etc :(

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  # 1008197 18-Mar-2014 16:27
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nigelj:... I've got about 4 modems, they all appear to report between 14 & 16db ...

Considering that you have a VDSL master filter etc in place already, that is very marginal.
I had similar stats on ADSL2, and only got 13/4Mbps on VDSL2 (despite a textbook Chorus install).
Went back to ADSL 2 weeks later.




Sideface


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BigPipe

  # 1008511 18-Mar-2014 22:22
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nigelj:
plambrechtsen: I would trust the Telecom TG582n with this value, as not all modems were created equal:

Line Attenuation: 14.5


Yeah, so I've got about 4 modems, they all appear to report between 14 & 16db

So.. yes you are marginal but you may get away with it. If you are a Telecom customer I can run a proper line test, otherwise just ring up and ask for it to be connected. Should end up with about 25mb or so if the numbers work out.


Proper line test, as in the Manual Pre-qualification that Snap did or some other sort of test?


We don't require any contract with vdsl, (or any plan)so you could always switch to Bigpipe and try for VDSlL, noting that you already have a splitter installed , which is good.

If you can get it, sweet, if not, then you can move back to ADSL with no penalty.

A few things could happen:

1) chorus reject the order, so you are no worse off than you are now
2) chorus accept the order, but then when the tech goes out he refuses to provision it. You can switch to adsl in that case, or to a different ISP,
3) chorus accept the order, it gets provisioned, but thn you find the speeds are terrible after the DLM period and want to move back to ADSL, which you can do, or move to another ISP.
4) chorus accept the order,it gets provisioned and you find the speeds are good. You stay with bigpipe and enjoy unlimited vdsl :)

Basically the only risk with us will be buying a vdsl modem which you might not be able to use if you can't get vdsl, but you could always try buying one from somewhere that offers a money back guarantee so you could take it back.




bigpipe.co.nz
https://www.facebook.com/BigPipeNZ
https://twitter.com/BigPipeNZ


 
 
 
 




856 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1009027 19-Mar-2014 14:55
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BigPipeNZ: We don't require any contract with vdsl, (or any plan)so you could always switch to Bigpipe and try for VDSlL, noting that you already have a splitter installed , which is good.

If you can get it, sweet, if not, then you can move back to ADSL with no penalty.


Yeah, so the main issue here would be working out where to park our POTS for a month or two, while we aren't huge users 'most of the time', our usage can skyrocket during power outages (and it seems stormy-season has started as of last weekend!), but considering moving to BigPipe+VOIP is something we had considered!

A few things could happen:

1) chorus reject the order, so you are no worse off than you are now
2) chorus accept the order, but then when the tech goes out he refuses to provision it. You can switch to adsl in that case, or to a different ISP,
3) chorus accept the order, it gets provisioned, but thn you find the speeds are terrible after the DLM period and want to move back to ADSL, which you can do, or move to another ISP.
4) chorus accept the order,it gets provisioned and you find the speeds are good. You stay with bigpipe and enjoy unlimited vdsl :)

Basically the only risk with us will be buying a vdsl modem which you might not be able to use if you can't get vdsl, but you could always try buying one from somewhere that offers a money back guarantee so you could take it back.


Yeah, so this is something that Telecom had suggested a week or two back, when we started to look into our options, the main concern is that giving it a go feels like it could just lead to provisioning headaches, especially if situation 2 or 3 happened (i.e. switching back and forth or cancelled upgrade).

I've taken up plambrechtsen's offer for a proper test, so will see what comes back with.

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  # 1050070 20-May-2014 20:19
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As someone else with potentially marginal access to VDSL I'd love an update on your progress and any potential blockers or alternatives.




Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC a Technology Evangelist and Product Manager. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.


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Master Geek

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  # 1050141 20-May-2014 21:46
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Hi,

I changed to VDSL three months ago. My ADSL modem reported 15dB / 5dB attenuation down / up and i had a sync rate of 14mb/s / 1mb/s and I was told I am 900m from the cabinet. My VDSL sync is now 23mb/s / 8mb/s down / up. Very happy with the improvement.

Hope this helps you decide.

Cheers.

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Ultimate Geek

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  # 1050159 20-May-2014 22:34
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IMO you'd may as well try. If your line is deemed to be unsuitable the worst that can happen is your request be rejected.

I'm 850m from the exchange. Central Auckland Suburb. ADSL2+ synced at 14.5mb down and 1mb up. 21.5db downstream attenuation.
VDSL stats as of right now:


The fastest the VDSL has ever synced here was 21.5mb down and 5.2mb up. It didn't last long, and was lost after a resync.
Over time the attenuation has been increasing and the sync speed decreasing. According to Chorus the line is "within spec". No date for fibre here.

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  # 1050181 20-May-2014 23:36
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Lorenceo: IMO you'd may as well try. If your line is deemed to be unsuitable the worst that can happen is your request be rejected.

I'm 850m from the exchange. Central Auckland Suburb. ADSL2+ synced at 14.5mb down and 1mb up. 21.5db downstream attenuation.
VDSL stats as of right now:


The fastest the VDSL has ever synced here was 21.5mb down and 5.2mb up. It didn't last long, and was lost after a resync.
Over time the attenuation has been increasing and the sync speed decreasing. According to Chorus the line is "within spec". No date for fibre here.


Down/up dB and attenuation are similar to me on ADSL2

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1.208 / 15.250
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 10,5 / 21,0


I'd happily take VDSL just for the better uplink speed.

Need to have a chat with Orcon to see if they will let me try it out.




Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC a Technology Evangelist and Product Manager. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.




856 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1051655 23-May-2014 12:44
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NotReally: Hi,

I changed to VDSL three months ago. My ADSL modem reported 15dB / 5dB attenuation down / up and i had a sync rate of 14mb/s / 1mb/s and I was told I am 900m from the cabinet. My VDSL sync is now 23mb/s / 8mb/s down / up. Very happy with the improvement.

Hope this helps you decide.

Cheers.


That sounds in line with what my line 'looks like' so good to hear, on the plus side there shouldn't be too many VDSL-capable properties so crosstalk should be kept to a minimum.  On the negative side even with a new cabinet the line seems as unstable as ever (well, since Chorus), two reasonable length outages I believe since I originally posted on the subject of VDSL. and the nasty block of RFI that plam spotted still seems to be showing on my modem's bittone graphs.

While the extra upload (which is the main reason I'm considering it) would be nice, I'm not sure it's really worth the effort now.

17 posts

Geek


  # 1057690 1-Jun-2014 20:21
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I signed up with Snap VDSL a while ago, at 900m from the DSLAM. When I signed up I was told it should be all good but in reality on only got 15MBit/1.5Mbit. I have a master filter with shielded Cat6 to the modem. Apparently there's crosstalk on the line or something. Anyway, got downgraded to ADSL and refunded the difference for the time I was paying for VDSL but only getting ADSL speeds.

 

Anyway, here's my current line stats on ADSL. Pretty average really. 

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Master Geek


  # 1057698 1-Jun-2014 20:58
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You are on the edge of effective VDSL. Will depend a lot on the physical cable, conductor size, any multiples and physical cable distance to your house, and any noise on the cable. attenuation can only tell you so much

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