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BDFL - Memuneh
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Reply # 78399 17-Jul-2007 09:31
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Jama: Not for backup or for use on your iPod you mean? All iPod users should be locked up for piracy and Apple should have been sued for encouraging piracy in the first place.


Not even for use on mp3 players such as the iPod. So, yes, all iPod users are breaking the law if not purchasing the songs on digital format already. This has been discussed before here, and there are plenty of links, but here it goes again:

Copyright Protection in New Zealand.


"There are a number of exceptions to the rights outlined in the Act. These are called "permitted acts". These reflect instances where Parliament has determined that the wider public interest, or the interests of particular groups, makes it necessary to restrict or limit the rights granted to copyright owners.

Permitted acts include:

"fair dealing" - for the purposes of criticism, review, news reporting, research or private study;
limited copying or dealing in the work for particular educational purposes;
limited copying or dealing in the work by librarians or archivists in specific circumstances;
exceptions in respect of certain activities by the Crown;
copying for the purposes of making copies that are in Braille;
subject to certain conditions, the making of a back-up copy of a computer program; and
recording a television programme for the purpose of making a complaint or for "time shifting" purposes so that a programme can be watched at a more convenient time.
There is no general exception to copyright infringement for private of domestic copying, including "format shifting", of legitimately purchased recordings from one medium to another to allow playing or viewing via other devices.
"


The proposed Digital Copyright Bill allows for this, but with restrictions:


In particular, the Bill will provide certainty around format shifting - it will allow New Zealanders to make one copy of a sound recording for private or domestic use, for each type of device used eg MP3, iPod.

It also introduces new exceptions for format-shifting of sound recordings for private and domestic use, and for correcting software errors. Format shifting is a term used to describe the practice of copying a sound recording from one format to another, for example from a CD to a portable MP3 player.

The exception does not legitimise clearly damaging behaviour like copying CDs for friends or unauthorised on-line file sharing of music.






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  Reply # 78512 17-Jul-2007 17:25
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got first email from x net since last wednesday...

"Hi Robin,

We apologise for the delay in making contact in regards to this
infringement.  This should of happened on the day of suspension. 

We advised the Operations team of this dispute.  They have checked the
net flow logs and have advised it's highly likely the infringement  is
correct.

For data to be downloaded traffic has to be sent & received.  If someone
was trying to spoof your IP address they wouldn't have been able to
download/share the content.  Your net flow logs also wouldn't match up
as well as they do. 

They have provided a timestamped log which shows the material which was
downloaded from your IP Address.  This breaks the terms of our
Acceptable Use Policy.

We suspended the service due to the breach of our Acceptable Use Policy.
The service is also suspended to ensure you are made aware of our
stance/process.

You haven't specifically denied or disputed that the material reported
wasn't downloaded from your connection.  I'm sorry but the infringement
stands unless you'd like to discuss it will the party which reported it.

--
Best regards,

Cameron N

Technical Response Centre Manager
Xnet Internet Support
WorldxChange Communications
0800 14 XNET
www.xnet.co.nz"..

this is a pretty resonible email
xnet are pretty well covered with their
t&c
the only things i have a problem with
is

a) Cameron only checked the logs after suspending me
so the only evidance for suspending me was NBC i find
that scary

b) Some of the badly spelt and unedited points i brought
up were not addressed at all in this email

another thing is with this new legaslation will xnet be
handing out more or less suspensions?
i only read some of the new legaslation but i thought isp's
had less responsibility for their customers use of their service
so dosen't that mean x net will send out less?


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  Reply # 78530 17-Jul-2007 19:19
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Well, this thread is a very good reason not to go with xnet for your internet requirements.

I have warned 3 people off them since last time the issue of them suspending without warning came up. Slingshot also do the $1 a gig, their internet service isnt as good but I have never heard of them suspending with no notice for something that is not affecting the integrity of the network (suspending for spamming etc is a different matter since it is damaging the network)

IMO the only thing they should do is advise the sender that this is not the USA and if they want to get the account holders details it will take a court order in an NZ court to do so.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 78534 17-Jul-2007 20:16
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Jama: Not for backup or for use on your iPod you mean? All iPod users should be locked up for piracy and Apple should have been sued for encouraging piracy in the first place.

Why blame Apple?  Sure they made it more popular but they didn't start the trend.  Why not sue the creators of the mp3 format instead?  You could say they're the leading contributors to music piracy.  (and are you saying you don't have a single music file and are therefore blameless?)

Jama: Personally, I don't see that problem if a user has lost/broken/scratched a game CD that they have paid for they should be able to easily obtain another copy. I buy games and then get a crack so that I don't have to suffer the inconvenience of disk checking each time I want to play. Sometimes I might download the ISO so I don't need the CD ever. What I have paid for is the activation/license code which is unique to me. I am not sharing this code, it is for my own use. Therefore it should be my choice how I store/retrieve/play the game.

I agree but surely you could say that downloading an ISO or a crack encourages the pirates more?  If there was no demand, would there be such a big problem?  Unfortunately, by definition, doing anything yourself (like ripping your own ISO) is still considered actual piracy.  And interestingly (I just read this), the same definition can label all those people who sell their second-hand games as pirates.

Jama: This is the irony - a sniff or a whiff of piracy on the internet and infringement notices are sent whilst Johnny the Pirate is selling bucket loads of illegal music/movie disks in Asia.

Plus the knock-off merchants (cheap Rolex anyone?).




Post-geek, opinionated mediaphile, and natural born cynic. Jack of all genres, master of none.

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Reply # 78535 17-Jul-2007 20:23
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i wonder if one day isp(s) in nz will ask us to install for example: P2P Barrier or such software will come preinstall with windowws... go ubuntu! ohhh humanity....

(i wrote windowws just to avoid the registered trademarks)

BDFL - Memuneh
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Reply # 78539 17-Jul-2007 20:34
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nakedmolerat: i wonder if one day isp(s) in nz will ask us to install for example: P2P Barrier or such software will come preinstall with windowws... go ubuntu! ohhh humanity....

(i wrote windowws just to avoid the registered trademarks)


This is completely off-topic.





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  Reply # 78546 17-Jul-2007 23:00
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richms:  Slingshot also do the $1 a gig, their internet service isnt as good but I have never heard of them suspending with no notice for something that is not affecting the integrity of the network (suspending for spamming etc is a different matter since it is damaging the network)


Perhaps that is why Xnet's Internet is very good, because they do their bit in the fight against piracy, probably one of the major factors in slow broadband.




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  Reply # 78555 18-Jul-2007 07:46
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While the people who have been disconnected know they have in most cases done the downloading, I still don't see it as Xnet's responsibility to act as police, judge & jury.
How about this: Little Johny uses his PC to copy a friends CD. RIANZ find out and send a takedown notice to Johny's power company, who then disconnect the households power for illegal usage of electricity.

Or apply the same situation to your home phone line - Telecom disconnecting your homeline because you discussed with a friend about how bad the Chinese government  is (illegal to do in China).

Ok, so that last one was a bit spurious, but my point is that it is not up to the carrier/provider to determine whether a 'crime' has been committed.
If CBS or Fox or whoever in the USA want your internet/phone/power/gas disconnected, it should have to go through the proper legal channels.



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  Reply # 78556 18-Jul-2007 08:23
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Mattnzl: While the people who have been disconnected know they have in most cases done the downloading, I still don't see it as Xnet's responsibility to act as police, judge & jury.

snipped

If CBS or Fox or whoever in the USA want your internet/phone/power/gas disconnected, it should have to go through the proper legal channels.


Isn't that what Xnet are trying to avoid? The minute it starts going through proper channels the legal expenses rocket up. This comes back to the question of whether any other ISP is getting these notices. As coffeebaron suggested Xtra could have saved Go Large with a swathe of suspensions.

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  Reply # 78565 18-Jul-2007 09:20
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sirrobalot: got first email from x net since last wednesday...

"Hi Robin,

We apologise for the delay in making contact in regards to this
infringement. This should of happened on the day of suspension.

We advised the Operations team of this dispute. They have checked the
net flow logs and have advised it's highly likely the infringement is
correct.

For data to be downloaded traffic has to be sent & received. If someone
was trying to spoof your IP address they wouldn't have been able to
download/share the content. Your net flow logs also wouldn't match up
as well as they do.

They have provided a timestamped log which shows the material which was
downloaded from your IP Address. This breaks the terms of our
Acceptable Use Policy.

We suspended the service due to the breach of our Acceptable Use Policy.
The service is also suspended to ensure you are made aware of our
stance/process.

You haven't specifically denied or disputed that the material reported
wasn't downloaded from your connection. I'm sorry but the infringement
stands unless you'd like to discuss it will the party which reported it.

--
Best regards,

Cameron N

Technical Response Centre Manager
Xnet Internet Support
WorldxChange Communications
0800 14 XNET
www.xnet.co.nz"..

this is a pretty resonible email
xnet are pretty well covered with their
t&c
the only things i have a problem with
is

a) Cameron only checked the logs after suspending me
so the only evidance for suspending me was NBC i find
that scary

b) Some of the badly spelt and unedited points i brought
up were not addressed at all in this email

another thing is with this new legaslation will xnet be
handing out more or less suspensions?
i only read some of the new legaslation but i thought isp's
had less responsibility for their customers use of their service
so dosen't that mean x net will send out less?





Hi, I'm a Systems Engineer from Xnet and we handle the abuse queue.



First up I'd like to point out that we do in fact make checks before deciding if an infringement notice has merit. Only if after these checks we believe the infringement notice is likely to be correct, will be up hold our Terms and Conditions and suspend the account. We do not blindly suspend accounts based on random emails we receive from unknown parties. In addition to this, the emails we receive will only be processed if they quote correct international law, plus we do not provide customer information to any third party unless correct New Zealand law is observed.



I have no idea as yet what changes there might be to our policy with regards to the new legislation.



All our customers are able to request their traffic usage logs. There can be a nominal fee as these logs are very large and take some time to process. Though be warned they are quite raw in terms of data so your mileage may vary.



I hope this has addressed your points a little better.


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  Reply # 78567 18-Jul-2007 09:48
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... take some time to process. Though be warned they are quite raw....


If they're raw, why do they take time to process? Tongue out

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

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  Reply # 78570 18-Jul-2007 09:58
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willnz:

... take some time to process. Though be warned they are quite raw....


If they're raw, why do they take time to process? Tongue out

(sorry, couldn't help myself)


They're raw in terms of readability.  The processing time is because we have to extract the records associated with a specific customer and I can assure you the logs are huge.





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  Reply # 78575 18-Jul-2007 10:45
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Does anybody have contacts relatively high up at other ISP's and can gain official comment on their policies etc?

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  Reply # 78576 18-Jul-2007 10:45
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Ladies and Gents this discussion can on and on and we understand because of the nature that there will be a number of opinions.

Now on how and what we do in relation to Copyright Material remember please this is our Company and the T/C's do explain our position, some people may not like it but we are the ones that have to deal with the copyright abuse notices and just ignoring copyright infringement notices is not really an option, trust me it is a major concern and it does actually chew up our resources in dealing with it, We would much rather be developing and improving the network than dealing with this kind of situation so this is why we have this policy.

We do check logs and this takes some time, so it cost's me time and effort in the operations department before notices are even sent out, time that can best served elsewhere I'm sure you will agree, we also give you the opportunity to resolve it directly yourself, we are a pretty fair company and we give you the options on how to resolve it.

We know the concerns people will have and the arguments that people will use it has been discussed internally at some length but it is our company policy at this point, we don't hide it and understand there will be differing opinions on it, we believe that this policy best protects us and our network.

Please feel free to discuss further as you are all entitled to do , you have heard the replies from both my Tech Service Manager and Systems engineer so this pretty much covers it from our side of the house, because of the nature of this discussion it can go on for ever and the opinions can and will get heated, so we will not be adding anything further from a company point of view at this time as we would only be saying the same things.


Regards
Phillip Moore
Operations Manager
WorldxChange Communications




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

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  Reply # 78589 18-Jul-2007 13:02
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Ok, so you don't hide this policy like you do your port 25 block, thats good to know.

Still, I am not prepared to have internet from a company that is likely to switch service off when there is nothing occurring on it that is causing a direct problem on the network.




Richard rich.ms

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