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602 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1065600 14-Jun-2014 15:52
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MarkDn:
DaveDog: I'd be interested to know if these disgruntled customers are actually rural people working the land or just well of townies that commute to the city each day for work, want the rural lifestyle, and are here demanding the city services.

If that's the case - then I'm not too sympathetic. I've been one of those commuting townies - and rural means that some things are different. You can't expect the same level of Internet speed because of logistics. You don't get town water and sewerage often either - are you banging onto the council about that?


That argument is really irrelevant Dave, it makes no difference whether they commute or not or why they're living in  a rural setting. I suspect you're just trolling.


I think it's relevant to ask if people are asking the government (or Chorus) to subsidise necessities or lifestyle choices.

If it's only 10 minutes to Mosgiel, I'm guessing maybe 30 minutes to many parts of Dunedin? That sounds like a short commute to me with the added advantage of lower house prices than in most cities. It takes me longer than that to catch the train or bus and if I took the car into central Auckland I'd pay a fortune in parking fees.

I agree with the earlier comment about the definition of 'rural' being applied somewhat inconsistently.

It also seems strange that there is fibre going to the school (or soon will be) and usually more than one fibre pair in a cable, and yet from the graph in the first post, the problem doesn't appear to be the last mile, but upstream congestion. Usually the most expensive part of fibre is burying it in the ground, so if there is fibre going to the school, you are probably in a better position than many rural communities.




#include <standard.disclaimer>

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1065654 14-Jun-2014 17:49
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sbiddle:
With the cabinets outside of town getting RBI (DSL) upgrades and having 282 dwellings (more to come) and 700 odd residents hooking into the schools fibre could end up causing congestion issues again we felt it best to try having the exchange upgraded first.


No it wouldn't.

You don't share the school's connection (and aren't allowed to), any RSP who wanted to partake in this would use the Chorus fibre to deploy their own connection to the school.

The problem is that getting say a 100Mbps connection into literally the middle of nowhere isn't cost effective. While it's great to have the ability to use this fibre, the economics aren't going to stack up in most areas.

Rather than simply signing petitions you need people to get serious about committing to a solution. The big problem is the minute you tell them it'll cost more than their current broadband they're not going to interested. The community is the solution to your issue, not sending letters to a telco. There are many communities in similar situations, and ultimately wireless RBI is the broadband solution for these people. Chorus can't afford to invest in these loss making areas with the financial troubles they are facing due to the campaign against them.


 




I agree.  Chorus has received an absolute kicking: dividends have been suspended, share price has slumped, its credit rating has a negative outlook yet somehow, despite all this, they're also supposed to invest in loss making areas.  Um...ok. 

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1065658 14-Jun-2014 17:58
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MarkDn:
sbiddle:
mercutio:
quickymart: Also - according to the Chorus site, you should be getting broadband around 5 Mb/s or more currently.


he was getting just over 5 megabit off peak, but 0.4 megabit on peak if you look at his graphs.



Which is still 10x faster than the Commerce Commission regulated broadband offering which needs to deliver 32kbps sustained to users over a 15 minute period.



Its actually 32kB/s  (bytes) capital "B"....32k is less than dial up...

And do you think that 32kB/s standard has kept up with the demands of modern internet? no, its out of date and irrelevant.   And another thing is when you have what should be a high speed adsl line and you're competing with others for bandwidth it can cause a range of other problems like insane latency, which then causes timeouts and drops, so although the speed might meet the 32 kB/s standard you quote the true picture is far worse as its not a reliable 32kB/s


It's 32 kilobits per second which is kbps - it is not 32 kilobytes per second (32 KB/s) which would equate to roughly 262kbps

As I've posted thousands of times on here - if people have an issue with a Commerce Commission regulated offering your first point of call is the Commerce Commission.




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  Reply # 1065673 14-Jun-2014 18:33
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Another option that anyone can get is satellite. Has that not been looked into?



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  Reply # 1065881 15-Jun-2014 09:31
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This has truly been a awesome response, both helpful and unhelpful.

When all said and done, we have ADSL1 technology in our exchange that is so old and does not serve a fit purpose for modern internet usage.  Schools are utilising their faster connections for more interactive contend and when the kids come home and want to do the same thing they can't or have a substantially more difficult time.  Businesses here are suffering due to poor upload speeds and sometimes evening speeds are slower than upload.

As we missed out on the previous Telecom ADSL2 role out and Chorus have altered their backhaul which I'm convinced has caused these congestion problems.  I think it's misguided that a township of 282 dwellings and 700 odd residents, School, Medical Centre, Shops, Cafes, Butcher, Pub, Petrol Station, Fire Station, PGG Wrightson and many home businesses should be left out of the UFB / RBI (DSL) upgrades, especially considering cabinets feed off our exchange are being upgraded as part of the RBI (DSL) service.

The idea behind the petition is to get govt to add Outram to the UFB / RBI (DSL) upgrades meaning we should/could have ADSL2/VDSL2 with a decent backhaul.  Then if Chorus were smart they would also promote the Boost HD and Boost VDSL services and get more money from the community, but until they do that or add that thought into their investment plans they won't see beyond their blinkers...

Thank you all for your comments, this has been a lively thread.
Tim

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  Reply # 1065890 15-Jun-2014 10:02
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The one thing you do need to understand is your situation isn't unique. There are many areas that have ASAMs that will not see these upgraded because it's simply not cost effective for Chorus to upgrade these. If money was no barrier then it would be awesome (and Chorus would agree from a network management perspective) to have every ASAM replaced with an ISAM, especially whether Ethernet backhaul is available. When there has unfortunately a campaign lead by a vocal few to trash Chorus which has had massive financial implications, such things that may have occurred are certainly not going to occur.

FYI I'm not sure if you understand exactly what Boost is, but Boost is a EUBA product, not a UBA product.


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  Reply # 1065892 15-Jun-2014 10:07
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sbiddle: The one thing you do need to understand is your situation isn't unique. There are many areas that have ASAMs that will not see these upgraded because it's simply not cost effective for Chorus to upgrade these. If money was no barrier then it would be awesome (and Chorus would agree from a network management perspective) to have every ASAM replaced with an ISAM, especially whether Ethernet backhaul is available. When there has unfortunately a campaign lead by a vocal few to trash Chorus which has had massive financial implications, such things that may have occurred are certainly not going to occur.

FYI I'm not sure if you understand exactly what Boost is, but Boost is a EUBA product, not a UBA product.



Give it up Steve, it appears Tim is only prepared to debate based on emotion, and won't accept the economic factors in play.

Cheers - N


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  Reply # 1065894 15-Jun-2014 10:34
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Instead of petitioning Chorus for a service that many have said is simply un-economic, could your township come up with a business plan to help pay for a portion of the cost of an upgrade of telecommunications services?

For example, the township of Eketahuna (population 441 in the 2013 census) lost its petrol station years ago because the big oil companies weren't interested in such a small place. The town got together and funded their own petrol station with the company GAS.




Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?


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  Reply # 1065896 15-Jun-2014 10:45
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I haven't read all the posts but what exactly will petitioning  Chorus do given they are a private company, what are the expectations as if I was a shareholder in chorus and they suppllied services at a loss I wouldn't  too happy.




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  Reply # 1065900 15-Jun-2014 11:04
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Me me me me generation

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  Reply # 1065904 15-Jun-2014 11:10
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jeffnz: I haven't read all the posts but what exactly will petitioning  Chorus do given they are a private company, what are the expectations as if I was a shareholder in chorus and they suppllied services at a loss I wouldn't  too happy.


That's why there are two approaches

a) Complain to the Commerce Commission clearly stating that you believe their regulated broadband offerings should be far in excess of what they are now (remembering what you're getting does currently exeed this)

b) Community groups together and partners with a provider to deliver better broadband which can be easily done providing residents accept that any such offering will cost more than what they're paying now, which is ultimately the fundamental stumbling block. If you could get 100 people committing to an alternative option and accepting that they're not necessarily going to get unlimited broadband for $85 per month you could have a vastly superior offering.




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  Reply # 1065911 15-Jun-2014 11:21
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NZtimbo: This has truly been a awesome response, both helpful and unhelpful.

When all said and done, we have ADSL1 technology in our exchange that is so old and does not serve a fit purpose for modern internet usage.  Schools are utilising their faster connections for more interactive contend and when the kids come home and want to do the same thing they can't or have a substantially more difficult time.  Businesses here are suffering due to poor upload speeds and sometimes evening speeds are slower than upload.

As we missed out on the previous Telecom ADSL2 role out and Chorus have altered their backhaul which I'm convinced has caused these congestion problems.  I think it's misguided that a township of 282 dwellings and 700 odd residents, School, Medical Centre, Shops, Cafes, Butcher, Pub, Petrol Station, Fire Station, PGG Wrightson and many home businesses should be left out of the UFB / RBI (DSL) upgrades, especially considering cabinets feed off our exchange are being upgraded as part of the RBI (DSL) service.

The idea behind the petition is to get govt to add Outram to the UFB / RBI (DSL) upgrades meaning we should/could have ADSL2/VDSL2 with a decent backhaul.  Then if Chorus were smart they would also promote the Boost HD and Boost VDSL services and get more money from the community, but until they do that or add that thought into their investment plans they won't see beyond their blinkers...

Thank you all for your comments, this has been a lively thread.
Tim

So, as I asked, has satellite been looked into? Or no?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1066021 15-Jun-2014 14:52
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jeffnz: I haven't read all the posts but what exactly will petitioning  Chorus do given they are a private company, what are the expectations as if I was a shareholder in chorus and they suppllied services at a loss I wouldn't  too happy.

Nobody is petitioning Chorus.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1066048 15-Jun-2014 16:06
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raytaylor:
mercutio:
oxnsox: In cases like this, where the local school has fibre, you're best to look for community based options.
After all the speeds lower when the kids come home from school, so the school fibres just sitting idling whilst the community crys out for more


are schools allowed to resell internet?  it seems dodgy in a way to me.  although if the school can get fibre, it should be possible for a dslam to get fibre, or a wireless provider.



The school is not, however an ISP can use the school's fibre connection and light up the second/third/fourth ports on the ONT and rent their roofspace for a microwave radio link to feed a nearby tower. So long as the ISP's use of the fibre is secondary to the schools own use.

The ministry has provided a handbook for school boards and distinctly makes it clear that it is illegal for a school itself to become an ISP, but they may lease their resources for profit to the ISP.
The idea is that the money bought in from the ISP leasing roofspace will go towards buying IT equipment or whatever the school wants.

However there is a $10k outlay at least for a small radio based system, and if the local telephone cabinet was unbundled, then probably $30k for them to unbundle it and put in a DSLAM with a tie cable


That's the problem with rural broadband, even if it is technically possible, and very affordable - the bureaucracy is crap to keep it complex and expensive. One fibre sits idle at 7pm while Chorus moan about it's not worth putting in new equipment for residents. No amount of money is going to fix mindset there.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1066066 15-Jun-2014 16:39
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Perhaps go talk to the community, hold a meeting about it. Then find out who wants to offer land to put some microwave gear up to a major backhaul. Or are the famers happy with what they have?

Who wants to pay for it?

Then who's all willing to put in to a pool of funds and see what you've got, what you can buy, vs what it will deliver to the end user of each party that chips in?

Here's an idea... let the government or setup a community charity / non-profit organisation - buy everything you need to provide the broadband speeds these small areas want. Then up the tax or rates or membership fees to reflect the real price of providing those services?

I've lived in small communities before, but the one's I lived in would do something about a lack of whatever in their community through setting up trusts or non-profits or a new business.

Waiting on a private company to agree with something uneconomic, or a government to re-write a private companies terms and conditions of use isn't going to happen any time soon. Chorus is a private company, not a public commodity.

If you're against asset sales, remember who to vote for at the next election. Funny enough, most rural people I've meet vote National. Who sold Telecom off decades back?

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