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  # 1320762 9-Jun-2015 22:54
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Bilbo2021:  How about helping rather than picking holes in it!


They are helping.




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# 1320763 9-Jun-2015 22:56
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johnr: 4 kids would cost a fortune, You must be doing very well



I would say about 4G???

 
 
 
 


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  # 1320765 9-Jun-2015 23:00
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Wairoakid: 1. Who cares how Chorus feel about it, they were/are employed by the new zealand government, they don't get to set the rules, new zealand government does. They are raising the cost of copper right across the board which means more money anyway.


Actually Chorus do set many of the rules because the New Zealand government sold the entity to private investors.

We need to take care when making claims about private property.

Wairoakid: 2. All this talk about Wairoa having VDSL, who is aware of our speeds here? When my parents had ADSL 4km away from the Wairoa telephone exchange their average speed was 0.95Mbps download and 0.62 Mbps with a ping of 40 with Vodafone. When I was living 1.3km away from exchange my average was 15 Mbps download and about 3 Mbps up, also with an average ping of 40 with Vodafone. 


Many here also know all about the stats for public service uptake and network performance across the whole country.

Wairoakid: 3. Now I am on Gisborne Net (http://about.gisborne.net.nz/about-gisborne-net/) with downloads averaging 25Mbps and 20Mbps up, using wifi technology similar to what will be used for Wairoa Wifi. I don't have a phone line but if someone else wanted to keep their landline its only $11.50 for VoIP with 2Talk (http://www.2talk.co.nz/home.html). 


Given the number of wireless providers in your region, can you tell me why one or more of them hasn't already built a network across your town?

Can you explain to me why this has fallen on council?





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  # 1320767 9-Jun-2015 23:04
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johnr: 4 kids would cost a fortune, You must be doing very well


Kinda rude, but you highlight what I suspect it is a common problem.

It's clearly a problem in my area.

Consumers here have SkyTV because it won't give them bill shock and doesn't cause arguments and costs much less to operate than the internet for some folk (though tablets and phones are fixing the problem of power use).










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# 1320792 10-Jun-2015 03:11
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DonGould:
johnr: 4 kids would cost a fortune, You must be doing very well


Kinda rude, but you highlight what I suspect it is a common problem.

It's clearly a problem in my area.

Consumers here have SkyTV because it won't give them bill shock and doesn't cause arguments and costs much less to operate than the internet for some folk (though tablets and phones are fixing the problem of power use).








Tongue and cheek

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  # 1320809 10-Jun-2015 07:21
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Wairoakid: .

3. Now I am on Gisborne Net (http://about.gisborne.net.nz/about-gisborne-net/) with downloads averaging 25Mbps and 20Mbps up, using wifi technology similar to what will be used for Wairoa Wifi. I don't have a phone line but if someone else wanted to keep their landline its only $11.50 for VoIP with 2Talk (http://www.2talk.co.nz/home.html). 



Fixed wireless is very different to building a network such as the one proposed.

The simple, but harsh real world reality is that what is proposed simply will not work. There are no if's or buts. If it was to proceed it would be a lemon. Those behind clearly lack any real understanding of building a network or WiFi as a whole, and it's a shame people are being sucked along given hope of a solution, and that ratepayers could ultimately fund what will end up being a disaster.



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  # 1320849 10-Jun-2015 08:55
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sbiddle: I'm all for people having grand visions, but just because somebody has an idea doesn't mean it's a good one. What they propose has so many fundamental issues that it would never ever be able actually work well at all.

It's the sort of concept that 10 years ago when people thought WiFi was a great idea and it was in it's growth phase would have been deployed - and was deployed. Right now it's just sinking money down the drain.




I agree, 10 years ago technology could not match the expectations but 10 years in technology terms is a very long time, things have changed a little bit since then ...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/17/nyc-launches-free-gigabit-speed-wi-fi-network/

http://www.fastcompany.com/3044704/most-creative-people/inside-new-yorks-plan-to-cover-the-city-in-free-super-fast-wifi

 
 
 
 


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  # 1320864 10-Jun-2015 09:11
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Bilbo2021: I agree, 10 years ago technology could not match the expectations but 10 years in technology terms is a very long time, things have changed a little bit since then ...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/17/nyc-launches-free-gigabit-speed-wi-fi-network/

http://www.fastcompany.com/3044704/most-creative-people/inside-new-yorks-plan-to-cover-the-city-in-free-super-fast-wifi


Agreed.  The wifi technology that's coming on line now is just proving us all wrong that this stuff can't be done.

Steve has some valid points that simply can't be ignored too.

In the past 72 hours, since this hit my radar, I've read a lot of commentary from a number of areas and it's very clear that to move forward, this project has a significant number of complex issues that needs to be resolved.

Bilbo if you want this project to work in your area, in my view, you're going to need to get very focused on just asking questions about how to move it forward and across the line.

People here do have a proven track record of making these things work, so if your community want it to work then you're in the right place.

They will have reservation though.  At a recent industry meeting I was at, the joke was "How do you make a big pile of money vanish in the wifi space.... woosh..."

Large stacks of money has been thrown at this stuff in the past, people have been burnt and no one here wants to be tainted with that brush again.

So far all I'm seeing is a concept document (which is fine) in a council LTP.

What is the plan to move forward? 

What needs to happen next to get funding committed?

What technology choices have been made?

Who is going to design the running network?

Who's going to run it day to day?

How is network management going to work?

These questions aren't in the right order, they're just want comes to mind. 






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  # 1320908 10-Jun-2015 09:37
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Thanks Don

can’t really give too much information at this stage.

What i can say is this document was never intended for technical review, it is more targeted at highlighting whats causing the following
- population decline and economic decline 
- increasing digital divide

And one possible solution that could help address these
- Provide broadband to the entire community as a Service like water and sewage.
- Transition the economy towards the growing tech sector.

I believe that consumer demand for high speed mobile broadband (i.e. we want low cost high speed access everywhere) will continue to drive huge advancement in the Wifi space. I will leave with the following for people to read

http://blogs.cisco.com/cle/10-predictions-for-the-future-of-wi-fi-and-mobility

I will flick you an email, maybe we could talk more about this offline.

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  # 1320953 10-Jun-2015 10:26
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Bilbo2021:
What i can say is this document was never intended for technical review, it is more targeted at highlighting whats causing the following
- population decline and economic decline 
- increasing digital divide

And one possible solution that could help address these
- Provide broadband to the entire community as a Service like water and sewage.
- Transition the economy towards the growing tech sector.


In my view, internet access isn't just about moving your existing economy towards the tech sector as much as it's about just integrating the Internet of Things into everything we currently do.

What I'm finding interesting right now is the growing number of small projects like yours that are popping up more and more often.

Clearly folk in these smaller rural towns just aren't willing to wait any more for promises of good service delivery from Wellington.

Apathy was the problem we were having in your areas.  Clearly population decline is now starting to bite to a point where you guys are starting to rise up or see your small towns just die.

I visited such a town last year.  Most of the commerical buildings in the main street were just boarded up.

Like you, they have a vision of delivering service to their entire town too.  They're starting differently to you.  They're currently working on building a small network to hook up half a dozen sites so they can learn the technology and get their feet wet.

Current history seems to show that the best outcomes in this space occur when locals just roll up their sleeves and get dirty with a pile of equipment and a small budget.






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  # 1321954 10-Jun-2015 10:59
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Bilbo2021:
sbiddle: I'm all for people having grand visions, but just because somebody has an idea doesn't mean it's a good one. What they propose has so many fundamental issues that it would never ever be able actually work well at all.

It's the sort of concept that 10 years ago when people thought WiFi was a great idea and it was in it's growth phase would have been deployed - and was deployed. Right now it's just sinking money down the drain.




I agree, 10 years ago technology could not match the expectations but 10 years in technology terms is a very long time, things have changed a little bit since then ...

http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/17/nyc-launches-free-gigabit-speed-wi-fi-network/

http://www.fastcompany.com/3044704/most-creative-people/inside-new-yorks-plan-to-cover-the-city-in-free-super-fast-wifi


Both of those proposals are very different from what you're proposing and on a technical level will work fine. They're no different to the thousands of other such networks being deployed around the world right now - they're providing WiFi in public spaces as a complementary offering.

You're wanting to totally replace fixed internet with WiFi, relying on 2.4GHz wireless to provide inbuilding coverage and to deliver VoIP services with no way to guarantee QoS. That simply will not work.

There is nothing wrong with providing WiFi, and building large scale networks is my job. What you want to do however is something very different from the two examples above, and is flawed at the first step when it comes to a technical assessment of one simply question "will this actually work properly". The simple answer is no.

How are you going to deal with the fact coverage will be terrible? How will you deal with interference? How will you deal with security? How will you deal with clients with poor signal bogging down APs? The list goes on...

As I've said many times on here community based networks are the solution for many areas of NZ where infrastructure is poor. Wairoa is not one of those areas and access to services isn't the problem - the problem seems to be one of affordability. If you're building a network it needs to be built properly, and this is an example of a plan that while it sounds great, simply can never work as intended. It's as simple as that.

If you'd simply decided to build out a network covering public areas I'd applaud you on your move - but thinking you can provide in-building coverage to replace fixed line services inside the vast majority of the 1500 homes in Wairoa using the planned network is simply a dream.

Aside from that there are also some significant issues I see with costing - I'm not sure you can get 500Mbps of international transit delivered to Wairoa for $10/Mbps - that's less than what somebody in Auckland would pay.







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  # 1322007 10-Jun-2015 12:18
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So let's pick Steve's post apart...

First, let's remember that Steve isn't here to just put you down or pick holes.  He's built significant networks around the place and knows a great deal about what he's talking about.  Read his blogs, have a look at how much this guy gives back to the technical community for free, every week.  However, like many really good technical people, he does tire some days of just shouting at the rain, so you do have to excuse his bluntness. :)


sbiddle:  You're wanting to totally replace fixed internet with WiFi, relying on 2.4GHz wireless to provide inbuilding coverage and to deliver VoIP services with no way to guarantee QoS. That simply will not work.


Steve is telling you that you need to reserve the 5ghz space for your external network and 2,4 for internal (ie inside houses).  He's also hinting at the fact that you're going to need to have a plan to manage the 5.xGhz frequency space.

You also need to plan QoS on your network so that voice will work and not get flooded out by video.

Some software solutions already exist to do all this and more are on the way.

If you guys aren't already InternetNZ members then you should be because they're the guys that are funding and driving a lot of this stuff.



sbiddle:

There is nothing wrong with providing WiFi, and building large scale networks is my job. What you want to do however is something very different from the two examples above, and is flawed at the first step when it comes to a technical assessment of one simply question "will this actually work properly". The simple answer is no.


Ok his point here is that you need a designer with some real clue about this stuff in large scale, not just the skills of someone who's built a couple of wifi links to connect a couple of buildings.  You need people who have some experience with 'carrier' style networks. 

I'd be thinking in terms of reaching out to some of the university guys around the world who have been building networks this size to cover their campus.


sbiddle:  How are you going to deal with the fact coverage will be terrible? How will you deal with interference? How will you deal with security? How will you deal with clients with poor signal bogging down APs? The list goes on...


Again Steve is right, the list does go on, but it's not endless, but you do have to have answers to everyone of these questions.

My best answer to these questions is for you guys who are interested in this project to start buying some gear and start to learn how it works.  This stuff is all consumer friendly and can all be purchased locally in New Zealand from a number of retailers.  www.gowifi.co.nz   www.campbellsoftware.co.nz  and I'm sure there are others.


sbiddle:  As I've said many times on here community based networks are the solution for many areas of NZ where infrastructure is poor. Wairoa is not one of those areas and access to services isn't the problem - the problem seems to be one of affordability. If you're building a network it needs to be built properly, and this is an example of a plan that while it sounds great, simply can never work as intended. It's as simple as that.



I only half agree with Steve here.  'Affordability' or 'willingness to pay'?  Others in this community have commented to me about the number of sky installations in your town, so clearly people aren't that hard up.  Is this discussion really about funds or is it about the continued support of spending on old out dated technology?



sbiddle:  If you'd simply decided to build out a network covering public areas I'd applaud you on your move - but thinking you can provide in-building coverage to replace fixed line services inside the vast majority of the 1500 homes in Wairoa using the planned network is simply a dream.



If you never have a dream you never have a dream come true.


sbiddle:  Aside from that there are also some significant issues I see with costing - I'm not sure you can get 500Mbps of international transit delivered to Wairoa for $10/Mbps - that's less than what somebody in Auckland would pay.


That's not true and with the greatest of respect, Steve, you need to do some shopping around if you think it is.













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  # 1322087 10-Jun-2015 13:20
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@DonGould

Yes i agree with all your points we are also looking at some private 6ghz ranges where required. We have delved into enough detail looking at current technology (and changes coming down the line) to feel confident that it can be done and we are in the process of running a physical feasibility study in the community using the actual equipment.   Its a shame that many have amused that Proposal document is the detailed design, that is yet to be completed and wont be started on until later this year after the physical and social portions of the feasibility study have been completed, at which time all the technology components will again be reviewed based on the latest equipment and knowledge available at that time.

At this stage it may be a good time to mention that this document was originally created in Dec 2013 and again reviewed Jan 2015 ... i those 13 months the cost of the equipment halved and the speeds doubled.   It will be interesting to see whats available in 2016/17 when/if we actually build it.  

Also a few things to consider, Wairoa is flat we do not have high buildings or hills to contend with and the township is relatively evenly dispersed ... from a physical perspective i think we are well suited to a commercial grade, small town Wifi network.


Change is the only constant, chose to change or be forced to change.

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  # 1322116 10-Jun-2015 13:50
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Bilbo2021: @DonGould

Yes i agree with all your points we are also looking at some private 6ghz ranges where required. We have delved into enough detail looking at current technology (and changes coming down the line) to feel confident that it can be done and we are in the process of running a physical feasibility study in the community using the actual equipment.   Its a shame that many have amused that Proposal document is the detailed design, that is yet to be completed and wont be started on until later this year after the physical and social portions of the feasibility study have been completed, at which time all the technology components will again be reviewed based on the latest equipment and knowledge available at that time.

At this stage it may be a good time to mention that this document was originally created in Dec 2013 and again reviewed Jan 2015 ... i those 13 months the cost of the equipment halved and the speeds doubled.   It will be interesting to see whats available in 2016/17 when/if we actually build it.  

Also a few things to consider, Wairoa is flat we do not have high buildings or hills to contend with and the township is relatively evenly dispersed ... from a physical perspective i think we are well suited to a commercial grade, small town Wifi network.


Change is the only constant, chose to change or be forced to change.


Hi,

I don't know what 6ghz space you're looking at, but I wouldn't unless it's in the GURL space.

You're quite right about the equipment change.  I've just given up believing many things the naysayers venture because the equipment guys just keep breaking the rules time and time again.

Please report back regularly and progress and interact with us here.

As I expressed, yours is just one of a number of projects that hit my radar in recent weeks.  There is very clearly a growing community of interest in this stuff.

Personally I'm very interested in how we make the 50% of disconnected homes = 0% in New Zealand.


I'd like to hear more about what equipment you're using to power this stuff.  I like the idea of picking power up off the lights at night but I've yet to see a sensible low cost solution.

I'm also keen on seeing a low cost, monitor-able, power solution that will take 240v in and be like a UPS but give 24v out.  I've yet to find anything I actually like at a price point I like (ie sub $25 - not including batteries)

Also are you planning to build a layer 2 or layer 3 network?  Are you planning to make it OSPF?  What is your redundancy plan? 

I've been playing with the idea of 'back fence networking' too.  Here in Christchurch we have flat areas too and the problem that causes is signal bleed (a point that Steve was driving at).







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  # 1322171 10-Jun-2015 14:17
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johnr:  Tongue and cheek


Of course John, and I didn't miss that either :)

But you touch on what I think is quite a serious problem for us in the tech community.

You might drive around in a late model BMW sports car because it's just you and the wife these days, but these folk are traveling in a very second hand 7 seater van they picked up cheap in south Auckland.

My point being that we've been trying to build BMW quality solutions on expensive Cisco, Ericsson and Alcaltel hardware for decades which has now, very clearly, got to the point of just excluding people.

I recall in my life time seeing the rise of the phone network to the point were everyone had a home phone, the rise of the mobile network to the point where everyone has a mobile, but we've now got a disconnected generation at home for heavy data lifting.

We have to fix that. 

To fix it we're going to have to start educating these guys about the 7 seater equivalent in networking terms because these guys do have more babies, and you're quite right, that is just more expensive in terms of living costs than you and I who only have one or two kids.


D

(Note to readers - I have no idea what John drives, if he's married, gay, straight, single, divorced, father to 50 kids or owns a BMW.  Please try to read for my message and don't get caught on the details :) )





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