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  # 1320303 9-Jun-2015 13:52
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SaltyNZ:
DonGould:
My question is what impact does supporting these older technologies have on delivery of new tech that people want?



By definition, if it's profitable, none, really. It's not like anybody's short on rack space in data centres these day.


This is where we head back to a political debate then really isn't it?

As a society, is it ok for the copper provider to be making its income at the expense of mine and the rest of our society?

I get that copper is still very profitable for the telco who only has to spend a very little amount of money to maintain it, but what about 'me' who's getting more and more out of step with the first world because it costs 'the provider' more to upgrade their equipment just so 'my' business can make more profits (or just maintain profits)?

So now 'I'm' talking about moving income from the provider to me.

This of course is the debate of old where telco's around the world have built networks at great expense and now their owners (shareholders) want to just collect our gold off their investment.

I guess this is the point of the '3rd world' comment by the OP.

Personally I think the answer to this problem has to come back onto 'us' as the community, not the providers, hence my comments about the OP motivating his community to embrace UFB.

I see this stuff as a partnership between the community and the providers.  As a community, I feel we have to be mindful of the investment that the providers have made and not just expect them to throw money all over the place at once in stupid ways.

In this case, it seems to me that the OP wants the provider to just throw brand new cards in their exchange/cabinet, at their cost, so he can work from home (saving him travel costs and time).  So he's wanting to move profits from the provider to himself.

This really becomes a 'broken glass' question doesn't it?








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  # 1320321 9-Jun-2015 14:23
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DonGould: 
As a society, is it ok for the copper provider to be making its income at the expense of mine and the rest of our society?

I get that copper is still very profitable for the telco who only has to spend a very little amount of money to maintain it, but what about 'me' who's getting more and more out of step with the first world because it costs 'the provider' more to upgrade their equipment just so 'my' business can make more profits (or just maintain profits)?

So now 'I'm' talking about moving income from the provider to me.




Don, this is rubbish. If you - for example, a broadcaster who needs to shift live audio - want to move to all-IP, then there is literally nothing stopping you from doing so. If you wish to continue using ISDN because it's working for you so well that you're willing to part with a limb to pay for the privilege of continuing to use it, then that's nobody's business but yours.

If there is an industry propping up ISDN such that it's still profitable, then by definition Spark - or whoever - is able to pay for that weird guy who has worked in the same room of the same exchange for forty years, and still have money left over to hire fresh faces to design and roll out a shiny IP fibre network.

I don't want ISDN - and Steve's example of broadcast audio was news to me, I'll admit; I thought it was only used by big businesses with PBXes that have been sitting in the corner for twenty years quietly doing their jobs. But just because I don't want it, and you don't want it, that doesn't mean that the use case of those that do want it badly enough to pay for it is somehow invalid.

The continued existence of ISDN isn't holding back a cure for cancer. In fact, I suspect you are conflating 'ISDN' the unregulated retail service, with 'copper exchanges,' the regulated wholesale access service. 

There will come a point where the customer base for copper cannot support them anymore - but that day is far in the future, and it will never arrive as long as there are areas of this country where the date for UFB service is 'never'. RBI as currently designed is guaranteed to maintain second-class-citizen status for those who only have it as access. Cellular is great for quickly providing sparse coverage over a wide area, but it will never be a match for a cable on pure capacity, and as the wired world moves on, it will continue to lag further and further behind.




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  # 1320325 9-Jun-2015 14:26
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Hey Don,

We've still got people out there selling analog trunks on to new PBX systems with all the problems they can cause.  These should be ISDN or SIP..  Problem with SIP trunking your skill sets of the techs  has to be better   which quite frankly aren't.. 




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  # 1320334 9-Jun-2015 14:38
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old3eyes: Hey Don,

We've still got people out there selling analog trunks on to new PBX systems with all the problems they can cause.  These should be ISDN or SIP..  Problem with SIP trunking your skill sets of the techs  has to be better   which quite frankly aren't.. 


Yes that is a problem.  Currently working on a solution to that problem myself.





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  # 1320338 9-Jun-2015 14:42
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SaltyNZ:

Don, this is rubbish. If you - for example, a broadcaster who needs to shift live audio - want to move to all-IP, then there is literally nothing stopping you from doing so. If you wish to continue using ISDN because it's working for you so well that you're willing to part with a limb to pay for the privilege of continuing to use it, then that's nobody's business but yours.

If there is an industry propping up ISDN such that it's still profitable, then by definition Spark - or whoever - is able to pay for that weird guy who has worked in the same room of the same exchange for forty years, and still have money left over to hire fresh faces to design and roll out a shiny IP fibre network.

I don't want ISDN - and Steve's example of broadcast audio was news to me, I'll admit; I thought it was only used by big businesses with PBXes that have been sitting in the corner for twenty years quietly doing their jobs. But just because I don't want it, and you don't want it, that doesn't mean that the use case of those that do want it badly enough to pay for it is somehow invalid.

The continued existence of ISDN isn't holding back a cure for cancer. In fact, I suspect you are conflating 'ISDN' the unregulated retail service, with 'copper exchanges,' the regulated wholesale access service. 

There will come a point where the customer base for copper cannot support them anymore - but that day is far in the future, and it will never arrive as long as there are areas of this country where the date for UFB service is 'never'. RBI as currently designed is guaranteed to maintain second-class-citizen status for those who only have it as access. Cellular is great for quickly providing sparse coverage over a wide area, but it will never be a match for a cable on pure capacity, and as the wired world moves on, it will continue to lag further and further behind.


Yes, like you, I just assumed ISDN is being used on PABX that could just be moved on.  Steve's comments are interesting.

I'm wondering if my comment about ISDN just added noise to the question/issues.

Really all I was getting at is the need of the OP and community to just get busy and move to UFB where it can so that the old copper can be turned off and stop costing money. 

Does Chorus really want to still be supporting that old infrastructure or are they just doing it because people are still demanding it because they just won't move to UFB where it already exists?





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  # 1320344 9-Jun-2015 14:54
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i agree with moving to fibre where you can, but they should have thought about the sales pitch to body corps etc prior, it seems like a gap in its marketing strategy. i have NFI what the fix is to that now other than tenants trying to approach body corps?

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  # 1320346 9-Jun-2015 14:58
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DonGould:
Really all I was getting at is the need of the OP and community to just get busy and move to UFB where it can so that the old copper can be turned off and stop costing money. 



Well, on that we agree. My personal opinion is that if you currently have a copper wire going to your house, then the UFB project should replace it with a fibre. Yes: that will be expensive in a lot of places. But that's the whole point of a nationalised infrastructure project. If we only wanted it where it was profitable, then we could just leave it to companies to provide it wherever they saw a demand.

The whole point of 'tax' is that I help pay towards something that everyone gets to use, whether I personally use it or not. So if you think that your tax dollars should not go towards getting fibre out into places it will never otherwise go based on profitability then I'd like a refund on the tax I was charged for health care and education please, because I pay for both of those for my own family privately.




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  # 1320359 9-Jun-2015 15:14
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TeaLeaf: i agree with moving to fibre where you can, but they should have thought about the sales pitch to body corps etc prior, it seems like a gap in its marketing strategy. i have NFI what the fix is to that now other than tenants trying to approach body corps?


Well, they could easily fix that in legislation: LFCs are automatically granted the right to install whenever anyone in a body corporate requests it, or something to that effect. But don't worry, we'll get that flag changed and call it a parliamentary term well done.

Edit: and lo, so it shall be.




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  # 1320432 9-Jun-2015 16:31
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SaltyNZ:
TeaLeaf: i agree with moving to fibre where you can, but they should have thought about the sales pitch to body corps etc prior, it seems like a gap in its marketing strategy. i have NFI what the fix is to that now other than tenants trying to approach body corps?


Well, they could easily fix that in legislation: LFCs are automatically granted the right to install whenever anyone in a body corporate requests it, or something to that effect. But don't worry, we'll get that flag changed and call it a parliamentary term well done.

Edit: and lo, so it shall be.


She needs to whack the Auckland council around the head  for insisting that all fiber is underground even in areas where  power is still on poles and likely to stay that way for then  next 20 years or so..




Regards,

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  # 1320435 9-Jun-2015 16:33
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TeaLeaf: i agree with moving to fibre where you can, but they should have thought about the sales pitch to body corps etc prior, it seems like a gap in its marketing strategy. i have NFI what the fix is to that now other than tenants trying to approach body corps?


It's a problem that's common in both New Zealand and Australia.  Go to www.whirlpool.net.au and you can read endless posts about the same issues over there.

The problem is that you have to consider private property rights.

You might also be to young to remember the problems we had in the late 80's with cable ownership on private property.

When Telecom was first deregulated and we were allowed to sell phone systems, we used to run into problems with Telecom's position on ownership and value of cable in buildings.  It was a complex problem.  Telecom had installed PABX cabling and just rented the whole gig back to the business.  But when we came along and wanted to use the cable we then had to pay the whole 'new' price for it.  Customers objected because they could see that their rental had more than paid for the investment over time.

What happens when a competitive connection is just run to the boarder of an MDU and then the tenants want to just connect to that using the 'last mile' of cable that's on their property?







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  # 1320445 9-Jun-2015 16:40
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old3eyes: She needs to whack the Auckland council around the head  for insisting that all fiber is underground even in areas where  power is still on poles and likely to stay that way for then  next 20 years or so..


Given that fibre is a 100 year investment, I can see the sense in this.  20 years is just 20% of the life of the fibre.






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  # 1320455 9-Jun-2015 16:49
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no far from too young to remember that.

my point is simple, investing in fibre is pointless if they dont consider access to it in the first place.

its like investing $200k in a mercedes and nobody in the family have gas money.

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  # 1320461 9-Jun-2015 17:01
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TeaLeaf: its like investing $200k in a mercedes and nobody in the family have gas money.


That's actually quite a good analogy.

No one in your family is going to invest time in finding a job to work for gas money if there's not car.  The argument here is that this is a 100 year investment.  The government guys just don't care if you end up waiting a bit longer.  This is a marathon rather than a race.

Your frustration is that you're wanting to use this technology today, but the guys putting it in place are thinking in terms of 100 years.

Right or wrong, their position is simply that there just isn't any rush.  "The existing technology is still holding up, just us it" is their view. 

I see the problem in your case, the existing technology just isn't available to you. 

The question that comes to mind is if the government should be taking a more active role in making sure the available resources are best distributed to the community?

Should CFH and the LFCs be doing more to drive marketing in the easy to reach areas so that VDSL services are freed up for those who need it a bit longer?

I've been wondering the same thing about these Coglin cabinets that everyone keeps moaning about.  With 100,000 homes no passed, should there be more of the newer wisper cabinets now freed up so they can be moved?








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  # 1320464 9-Jun-2015 17:03
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old3eyes:
SaltyNZ:
TeaLeaf: i agree with moving to fibre where you can, but they should have thought about the sales pitch to body corps etc prior, it seems like a gap in its marketing strategy. i have NFI what the fix is to that now other than tenants trying to approach body corps?


Well, they could easily fix that in legislation: LFCs are automatically granted the right to install whenever anyone in a body corporate requests it, or something to that effect. But don't worry, we'll get that flag changed and call it a parliamentary term well done.

Edit: and lo, so it shall be.


She needs to whack the Auckland council around the head  for insisting that all fiber is underground even in areas where  power is still on poles and likely to stay that way for then  next 20 years or so..


There is a street near mine that has full underground power. But the phone wires are all overhead. I'll check and report back wether UFB is underground or not.





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  # 1320467 9-Jun-2015 17:08
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i want all our services to be underground, as we want to renovate and i really dont want anything over the air to the house. we are not due to 2019.

its quiet funny as our area has houses from the late 50's 60's and 70's and we are all over head power, the late 60's and 70's is all underground power, phones are all still overhead though. would love to see everything underground.

i think it was ashburton that is under-grounding services (Power and maybe telecommunications) on main roads as it reduces the chances of someone in a car hitting them and causing damage to the network.

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