Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3
2699 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1224

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1333237 29-Jun-2015 11:13
2 people support this post
Send private message

markl:... extended rant removed that really needs to move to a new topic. 


Happy to assist you with explaining Attenuation and various other things about why xDSL is best efforts so you will never get a guarantee about speeds only a very conservative estimate. If you want a guarantee then be prepared to dig deep into your pockets to get such a service.

Most people use their ISPs address checker, and in there it says if you can get VDSL or not.

Not sure where your rant came from, but feel free to start a new topic about it.

Edit: And the service is available to anyone who wants it. Yes there are limitations on Landlords for installation, MDUs when installing fibre and distance from the Exchange as to if you can get VDSL or not.

But the simple fact is the infrastructure or Chorus or the ISPs aren't preventing you from getting service. It's factors outside the control of the Fibre companies and ISPs that primarily limit your ability to get faster internet.





8533 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2928

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1333248 29-Jun-2015 11:48
One person supports this post
Send private message

the simple fact is no one can guarantee you what speed you will get on VDSL because there are just way way to many factors involved, and some of them are out of the ISP's hands. They can give you an indication or a rough guess but thats it. there is no accurate way to give you an exact number. But they do give you a guarantee that if the newly installed VDSL service isnt up to standard, you can roll back to ADSL at no cost.

your Ferrari analogy is flawed, its more like everyone can go in there and ask for a car but only those who the dealer allows will get one. Dealer = land lord.

At the end of the day its the landlord decision if they want UFB on there property, but the fact of the matter is most people dont know what UFB is or even care that much about it because to them ADSL is enough and if its fine for them it must be fine for their tenants.

If you want VDSL call your isp and ask them about it, ask what speed you might get, you dont need to know about attenuation, you just need to know how to operate a phone. they will tell you what you could expect or even if its available. you dont need to be a "network nerd" to do that.

The ball is in your court as to what happens, its not the infrastructure providers, ISP, anyone on here problem you cant/wont get VDSL/UFB. its between you and your landlord. If they dont want you to get UFB and VDSL is not avaliable, then you have 2 choices, live with your ADSL, or if internet speed really is a priority then you will move somewhere thats better connected. its just the simple fact of the matter.

 
 
 
 


348 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83


  # 1333275 29-Jun-2015 12:02
Send private message

BarTender:
markl:... extended rant removed that really needs to move to a new topic. 


Happy to assist you with explaining Attenuation and various other things about why xDSL is best efforts so you will never get a guarantee about speeds only a very conservative estimate. If you want a guarantee then be prepared to dig deep into your pockets to get such a service.


Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll go find a source that's a bit less condescending.



Most people use their ISPs address checker, and in there it says if you can get VDSL or not.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're not actually suggesting that most ISPs surface USEFUL information on their websites are you?!?


Not sure where your rant came from, but feel free to start a new topic about it.

Edit: And the service is available to anyone who wants it. Yes there are limitations on Landlords for installation, MDUs when installing fibre and distance from the Exchange as to if you can get VDSL or not.

But the simple fact is the infrastructure or Chorus or the ISPs aren't preventing you from getting service. It's factors outside the control of the Fibre companies and ISPs that primarily limit your ability to get faster internet.


My rant came from a simple point - that NZ's internet infrastructure might be theoretically ok and getting better, but the practical application of that service leaves a lot to be desired - reporting on the average possible internet connection speed at addresses is not something that most normal people would consider to be worthwhile - maybe the propellerheads out there might think it is, but the real measure is that of the average user's actual EXPERIENCED speed, not the speed they COULD HAVE if they changed to a different service that might be available. Normal people don't necessarily understand that there is a difference in speed between ADSL, VDSL and UFB - those are all just acronyms to them. 

And THAT is part of the problem, so must be factored into the discussion.

8533 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2928

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1333276 29-Jun-2015 12:04
Send private message

markl: Normal people don't necessarily understand that there is a difference in speed between ADSL, VDSL and UFB - those are all just acronyms to them. 



really its pretty clearly explained on the likes of sparks site
http://www.spark.co.nz/shop/internet.html?wizard=true&.html



348 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83


  # 1333285 29-Jun-2015 12:19
Send private message

Jase2985: the simple fact is no one can guarantee you what speed you will get on VDSL because there are just way way to many factors involved, and some of them are out of the ISP's hands. They can give you an indication or a rough guess but thats it. there is no accurate way to give you an exact number. But they do give you a guarantee that if the newly installed VDSL service isnt up to standard, you can roll back to ADSL at no cost.

your Ferrari analogy is flawed, its more like everyone can go in there and ask for a car but only those who the dealer allows will get one. Dealer = land lord.

 

Nope, the analogy is accurate - you've just chosen to misunderstand it. I wasn't referring to the landlord/tenant situation with that one...


If you want VDSL call your isp and ask them about it, ask what speed you might get, you dont need to know about attenuation, you just need to know how to operate a phone. they will tell you what you could expect or even if its available. you dont need to be a "network nerd" to do that.

The ball is in your court as to what happens, its not the infrastructure providers, ISP, anyone on here problem you cant/wont get VDSL/UFB. its between you and your landlord. If they dont want you to get UFB and VDSL is not avaliable, then you have 2 choices, live with your ADSL, or if internet speed really is a priority then you will move somewhere thats better connected. its just the simple fact of the matter.


Hmmm....yup, I'm going to call Vodafone. My god, have you EVER tried to talk to them about ANYTHING!? Their call centre staff are useless, and all they do is sit in some sweatbox in Manila and type what you say into their PC, mis-understanding every other word you say, whilst reading you some scripted questions that are so low level as to be insulting. 

The information should be available on their website. 

[Moderator edit (MF): removed some text]


348 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83


  # 1333286 29-Jun-2015 12:22
Send private message

Jase2985:
markl: Normal people don't necessarily understand that there is a difference in speed between ADSL, VDSL and UFB - those are all just acronyms to them. 



really its pretty clearly explained on the likes of sparks site
http://www.spark.co.nz/shop/internet.html?wizard=true&.html




Lol - fast, faster and "ultra fast" - that's a bit too "lowest common denominator" for most people. Also doesn't really explain the differences. 

374 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 47

Trusted

  # 1333295 29-Jun-2015 12:35
Send private message

It would be nice to have a promised speed for every address, but that is just not practical, although I hope we may soon see a better estimate based on nearby Sync speeds.

The top DSL Speed your line is capable of is not in any retailer's control, it is dependent on a telephone network design for exchange/cabinet locations from up to 40-100 years ago.  i.e. DSL is a technology designed to enable the internet over an existing technology to take advantage of what it can do.  A new Fibre technology is being built to provide exactly as you want, defined speeds.

TrueNet measures ISPs by how well they maintain speeds throughout the day on DSL, i.e. our testing is designed to identify if they maintain the best speed you can get.  

For webpage downloads, speed is only a minor factor, because header size, rampup, DNS response times and latency play much greater parts.  These are all factors the ISPs are able to influence to some extent, making webpage download time an excellent measure by technology.

Video is usually conducted at speeds below the average of 9Mb/s for ADSL, so also has little impact on users.  Again, the factors above are more likely to be influential, but also the performance of your client (computer/iPad) or home network is potentially an issue.

This month TrueNet plan to publish Satellite results, where the ISP has overcome some of the worst Latency you can possibly get (the return path to the satellite) to be competitive with ADSL downloading webpages.

 
 
 
 


8533 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2928

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1333308 29-Jun-2015 12:44
Send private message

markl: just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinking.

BDFL - Memuneh
63563 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 14052

Administrator
Trusted
Geekzone
Lifetime subscriber

348 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83


  # 1333371 29-Jun-2015 13:24
Send private message

Jase2985: markl: just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinking.


It's called having a dissenting opinion. Last I checked, that was allowed in your average democracy? I'm not a sheep, following the standard way of thinking - that's not in my nature. Neither is having an opinion and not sharing it! And most especially, having an opinion and being berated or belittled for it? Well, I think you can imagine how I feel about that. 



2699 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1224

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1333487 29-Jun-2015 15:09
One person supports this post
Send private message

markl:
Jase2985: markl: just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinking.


It's called having a dissenting opinion. Last I checked, that was allowed in your average democracy? I'm not a sheep, following the standard way of thinking - that's not in my nature. Neither is having an opinion and not sharing it! And most especially, having an opinion and being berated or belittled for it? Well, I think you can imagine how I feel about that. 


I've said (along with everyone else) line speed is out of control of the retailer. I was also spending some time responding saying that xDSL is best efforts (as is UFB with the exception of the 2.5mb EIR) so you will never get a guarantee of speed no matter which access method you connect to the internet via. This is also not unique to NZ and is the same (if not worse) in other countries. So your expectation of getting a guaranteed speed from the ISP when you sign up is unrealistic. It's not me berating or belittling you. It's pointing out a statement of fact that the laws of physics mean I (or anyone else in this country) have any control over and there is no point arguing over.

If you want a guaranteed service then you will need deep pockets to pay for it.

If you don't want to take my view on how xDSL works I suggest you have a read of the Wikipedia page explaining ADSL as it's quite good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.992.1
This one from Internode is also pretty good at explaining how xDSL works. Although the internode one doesn't list VDSL the same rules apply and the ADSL distances vs speed are pretty accurate since we don't have Annex M or ADSL Reach in NZ. VDSL has an effective limit of around 800 meters from the Exchange/Cabinet in NZ due to how Chorus have configured their equipment and with that you end up with around a 30mb down and 3-5mb up depending on the quality of the line. That is totally outside the control of the ISPs so again not much anyone can do with an equivalent service.

So in short, if you can get VDSL then your upstream speed will increase so overall it's more likely that your browsing experience will improve as well. If your ISP and thus Chorus say you can't get VDSL. Well then you know the situation you are in and have already been given the options available to you.

I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about it and am somewhat surprised that you perceive you are being berated or belittled for your point of view. You seem to be the one taking a rather aggressive approach towards myself and other people posting in this thread.





348 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83


  # 1333498 29-Jun-2015 15:20
Send private message

BarTender:
markl:
Jase2985: markl: just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinking.


It's called having a dissenting opinion. Last I checked, that was allowed in your average democracy? I'm not a sheep, following the standard way of thinking - that's not in my nature. Neither is having an opinion and not sharing it! And most especially, having an opinion and being berated or belittled for it? Well, I think you can imagine how I feel about that. 


<deleted blather about how xDSL follows the laws of physics and how I apparently expect a guarantee of speed from my ISP, when in fact I never said that at all - a description that goes beyond the existing "xDSL for dummies" approach that ISPs currently take, and ON THEIR WEBSITE(S) is what I want, plus perhaps some explanation of what my options are with respect to getting a better service if I'm struggling with my current one. Also again conveniently ignoring the fact that my REAL point is that broadband speed should be measured AS THE USER SEES IT to be meaningful>

I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about it and am somewhat surprised that you perceive you are being berated or belittled for your point of view. You seem to be the one taking a rather aggressive approach towards myself and other people posting in this thread.


I'M being aggressive?!?! Really? So it's not me who has been copping the arrogant and facetious "if you want faster broadband, move house" comments directed my way? It's NOT me that copped the "just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinging" comment that you included in your quote of my response above? 

Wow. I'm clearly on another planet from you.



383 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 132


  # 1333503 29-Jun-2015 15:23
Send private message

BarTender:
I've said (along with everyone else) line speed is out of control of the retailer. I was also spending some time responding saying that xDSL is best efforts (as is UFB with the exception of the 2.5mb EIR) so you will never get a guarantee of speed no matter which access method you connect to the internet via.


Just a slight correction. There are commercial products out there on the market that do have guaranteed speeds and up times. The cost of such products is naturally proportionately higher.  I use the word cost as opposed to price very deliberately in the previous sentence. One of the main reasons xDSL has so many foibles is because the product is designed to be a low cost solution accessible to the masses.




Please note: I have a professional bias towards Vodafone.

4081 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2823

Trusted

  # 1333505 29-Jun-2015 15:26
Send private message

Jaxar:
BarTender:
I've said (along with everyone else) line speed is out of control of the retailer. I was also spending some time responding saying that xDSL is best efforts (as is UFB with the exception of the 2.5mb EIR) so you will never get a guarantee of speed no matter which access method you connect to the internet via.


Just a slight correction. There are commercial products out there on the market that do have guaranteed speeds and up times. The cost of such products is naturally proportionately higher.  I use the word cost as opposed to price very deliberately in the previous sentence. One of the main reasons xDSL has so many foibles is because the product is designed to be a low cost solution accessible to the masses.


Also, Bartender clearly had a couple of drinks... I think he meant CIR (not EIR). Even then, that whole 2.5Mbps thingy on UFB is a little confused anyway.

Cheers -N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


152 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 41


  # 1333566 29-Jun-2015 16:39
One person supports this post
Send private message

markl: =
I'M being aggressive?!?! Really? So it's not me who has been copping the arrogant and facetious "if you want faster broadband, move house" comments directed my way? It's NOT me that copped the "just sounds like you want to complain about everything that doesnt fit into your way of thinging" comment that you included in your quote of my response above? 

Wow. I'm clearly on another planet from you.



why is being told to move house "arrogant and facetious"? it's a valid solution.

i'm sure you have lots of 'real world' reasons why you can't move but that's your own problem - no need to shoot the messenger.

1 | 2 | 3
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Anyone can broadcast with Kordia Pop Up TV
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:51


Volvo and Uber present production vehicle ready for self-driving
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:47


100,000 customers connected to fibre broadband network through Enable
Posted 13-Jun-2019 10:35


5G uptake even faster than expected
Posted 12-Jun-2019 10:01


Xbox showcases 60 anticipated games
Posted 10-Jun-2019 20:24


Trend Micro Turns Public Hotspots into Secure Networks with WiFi Protection for Mobile Devices
Posted 5-Jun-2019 13:24


Bold UK spinoff for beauty software company Flossie
Posted 2-Jun-2019 14:10


Amazon Introduces Echo Show 5
Posted 1-Jun-2019 15:32


Epson launches new 4K Pro-UHD projector technology
Posted 1-Jun-2019 15:26


Lenovo and Qualcomm unveil first 5G PC called Project Limitless
Posted 28-May-2019 20:23


Intel introduces new 10th Gen Intel Core Processors and Project Athena
Posted 28-May-2019 19:28


Orcon first to trial residential 10Gbps broadband
Posted 28-May-2019 11:20


Video game market in New Zealand passes half billion dollar mark
Posted 24-May-2019 16:15


WLG-X festival to celebrate creativity and innovation
Posted 22-May-2019 17:53


HPE to acquire supercomputing leader Cray
Posted 20-May-2019 11:07



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.