UFB ISPs, VLAN Tagging and CGN

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'That VDSL Cat'
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#2579975 6-Oct-2020 11:36

CGNAT is a bit of a sticky one given all the different clauses...

eg, some providers offer public IP on Business or Higher plans, but not the basic resi plan. some providers offer a free public if you ask for it. some providers charge for it.

You would almost need to have asterix's for each isp with footnotes to detail the exact condition.

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Behodar

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#2579987 6-Oct-2020 11:46

If I can get the data into a tabular-type arrangement, I could have yes/no columns for 'Offers CGNAT' and 'Offers Public IP' and leave it up to the reader to research things. But I agree that it could quickly become a mess.

luleelurah

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#2580097 6-Oct-2020 14:18

Yeah, I suppose there's a limit to how much info can be fit into the post, and this one isn't explicity a "choose an ISP" post, more of a "how to setup given your ISP". Geekzone does have a UFB chooser site which is pretty cool, but unfortunately it's more cost-focused rather than technical specs. Maybe the question of who is doing CGNAT just needs to be a separate thread.

I haven't actually clarified that my issues with Contact are because of CGNAT, so that leaves us with a total data points of zero for this so far anyway.

blu3max

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#2589454 20-Oct-2020 17:42

Worldnet has no VLAN tag and is DHCP. The phone-line comes from a separately sold ATA device. Unsure if they use CG-NAT.

blu3max

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#2624821 21-Dec-2020 10:00

Megatel has no VLAN tag and is PPPoE. Like Spark it has generic ppp credentials.

Username: nga@megatel.co.nz

Password: megatel

The VoIP is delivered via their own Modem/Router.

Behodar

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#3094671 25-Jun-2023 12:21

Behodar:

If I can get the data into a tabular-type arrangement, I could have yes/no columns for 'Offers CGNAT' and 'Offers Public IP' and leave it up to the reader to research things. But I agree that it could quickly become a mess.

I've seen a few posts about CGN (it seems that this is the "official" IETF abbreviation for CG-NAT) across the forums recently so I've been having a bit of a re-think. I'm considering adding a separate list to the first post, which to keep things simple will just be something like "these ISPs use CGN by default". As usual I'll need to rely on other forum members to actually supply information, but does this sound like it could do the trick?

Edit: I've started a (very sparse!) list in the first post. Updates appreciated :)

SmurfHk

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#3094709 25-Jun-2023 14:30

I've seen a few posts about CGN (it seems that this is the "official" IETF abbreviation for CG-NAT) across the forums recently so I've been having a bit of a re-think. I'm considering adding a separate list to the first post, which to keep things simple will just be something like "these ISPs use CGN by default". As usual I'll need to rely on other forum members to actually supply information, but does this sound like it could do the trick?

Edit: I've started a (very sparse!) list in the first post. Updates appreciated :)

be great if in doing this you could write a very brief summary of what effect CG-NAT has on your ability to set up and access your your network remotely? ie Can result in a double NAT unless you get a public or static IP, which can hinder Router based VPN, see eg https://www.nownz.co.nz/support/technical-support/broadband-help/public-ip-address/

cross ref to https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=306063

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michaelmurfy

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#3094727 25-Jun-2023 15:21

@Behodar I just edited your post to add more CGN providers - I had been collecting them and updating my own post here: https://murfy.nz/2018/02/06/picking-the-right-isp/

Note - Starlink I am pretty sure has the option to purchase a Static IP via Support now but I have not tested this to verify this myself.

It could also be worth recommending Tailscale (https://tailscale.com), Zerotier (https://zerotier.com) or Cloudflare Zero Trust tunnel as options to get around CG-NAT.

Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz
Referral Links: Quic Broadband (use R122101E7CV7Q for free setup)

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Behodar

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#3094890 26-Jun-2023 08:14

SmurfHk:

be great if in doing this you could write a very brief summary of what effect CG-NAT has on your ability to set up and access your your network remotely? ie Can result in a double NAT unless you get a public or static IP, which can hinder Router based VPN, see eg https://www.nownz.co.nz/support/technical-support/broadband-help/public-ip-address/

I've ended up unexpectedly busy, so not sure when I'll get to this.

michaelmurfy:

I just edited your post to add more CGN providers - I had been collecting them and updating my own post here: https://murfy.nz/2018/02/06/picking-the-right-isp/

Thanks for the update :)

lucasnz

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#3099988 4-Jul-2023 22:16

I think it better to maintain a list of ISP that don't use CGNAT, than those that do - since most people that are thinking about CGNAT, want to find ISPs without it. I'm currently a Slingshot customer and confirm they don't use CGNAT. I believe this applies to all Vocus' ISPs.

michaelmurfy

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#3099996 4-Jul-2023 22:54

@lucasnz I disagree.

For most, it doesn't matter if an ISP has CG-NAT or not. There are workarounds such as Cloudflare Zero Trust Tunnel and Tailscale etc, gaming still works, services still work fine and unless if you're explicitly hosting something then you basically never need to port forward to anything these days.

Maintaining a list of ISP's that have CGN (CG-NAT) is easier than maintaining a list of providers without. If you require a public IP the common advise is to go to a more specialist ISP that is more geared towards hosting stuff at home such as Voyager or Quic to name a few. Any other residential provider can and likely will drop CGN on you as soon as their IP addressing starts to run low given the cost of IPv4 addressing.

For some things you can get away with using IPv6 - basically most providers these days offer full IPv6 with the exception of Spark (+Skinny), NOW and MyRepublic.

Lastly, your statement isn't really true. Vocus = 2degrees and they're very much switching to CGN and have just built a new CGN stack on the "Vocus" network which they're moving 2degrees customers over to. Nobody is safe. It will happen eventually.

There is already a list of providers with CGN on the main page. This is actively maintained. I've added the last edit date on the post @Behodar.

raytaylor

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#3100029 5-Jul-2023 06:41

michaelmurfy:

Nobody is safe. It will happen eventually.

The population is expanding, the pool of of IPv4 addresses is not.
IPv6 dual stacked with IPv4 CG-NAT is the future.

Almost every gaming system/console supports IPv6 already so 95% of residential users can be migrated across without issue.

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lucasnz

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#3100050 5-Jul-2023 08:31

Thanks @michaelmurfy for the detailed response. I wasn't aware of quic, they actually mention they don't use CGNAT on their website, so that's really useful.

I agree that 95% (or more) of people won't notice if they are behind CGNAT or not. That being the case, why bother documenting the providers that use it. Anyone asking the question, is more than likely looking for a provider that doesn't use CGNAT.

I also agree, it will be increasingly hard to get a public IP (not behind CGNAT), again this heightens the need to know which ISPs remain with this offering.

Thanks for the pointers to Voyager and quic. Are you aware of any others (noting this could change at shy point)?

All the best.

Behodar

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#3100053 5-Jul-2023 08:35

My gut feeling is that at present CGN is still a relative rarity, so a list of providers that do use it is easier to maintain. If it needs to swap to the opposite type of list in the future then that's an option, but I feel like I have zero free time at the moment so don't want to make this any more of an administrative burden than it needs to be.

deadlyllama

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#3100055 5-Jul-2023 08:42

michaelmurfy:

@lucasnz I disagree.

For most, it doesn't matter if an ISP has CG-NAT or not. There are workarounds such as Cloudflare Zero Trust Tunnel and Tailscale etc, gaming still works, services still work fine and unless if you're explicitly hosting something then you basically never need to port forward to anything these days.

Maintaining a list of ISP's that have CGN (CG-NAT) is easier than maintaining a list of providers without. If you require a public IP the common advise is to go to a more specialist ISP that is more geared towards hosting stuff at home such as Voyager or Quic to name a few. Any other residential provider can and likely will drop CGN on you as soon as their IP addressing starts to run low given the cost of IPv4 addressing.

For some things you can get away with using IPv6 - basically most providers these days offer full IPv6 with the exception of Spark (+Skinny), NOW and MyRepublic.

Lastly, your statement isn't really true. Vocus = 2degrees and they're very much switching to CGN and have just built a new CGN stack on the "Vocus" network which they're moving 2degrees customers over to. Nobody is safe. It will happen eventually.

There is already a list of providers with CGN on the main page. This is actively maintained. I've added the last edit date on the post @Behodar.

Is there value in extending the list to also include if ISPs offer IPv6 or not?

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