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GEOMAX
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  #115243 7-Mar-2008 16:22
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I agree with Penultimatehop  .
If you listen to the views of 2nd Tier Telco's you would accept defeat and swap over to Voip now.
In  reality as with the Australian CDMA closure.....the kiwishare will ensure equivalent service is available or it wont happen.
who knows what technology will deliver before then..
cheers,
George

cyril7
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  #115245 7-Mar-2008 16:25
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remember here that Telecom no longer puts copper in the ground, all new subdivisions will be fibre, pure and simple it is IP based services to the home


Does Telecom have a greenfields fibre plan, maybe in the future, but currently I see no evidence around here, and there are some quite large new developments happening. I have noted fibre to the curb in these new developments, but nothing more.

Skys new HDi box sports a ethernet port, both Sky and Foxtel have stayed mum on its use, but I presume interactive as well as VOD type features are in the wings.

The alarm industry seems deeply backward. A couple of years ago a company I was developing IP and GPRS based logging gear for were trying to present IP interfaces for the alarm industry, from what i could see (from back at the design bench) they were not aware of future trends, didnt want to know and from what I can tell that still pretty much the case for many of them.

Cyril

 
 
 
 


maverick
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  #115250 7-Mar-2008 16:44
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GEOMAX:
I agree with Penultimatehop  .
If you listen to the views of 2nd Tier Telco's you would accept defeat and swap over to Voip now.
In  reality as with the Australian CDMA closure.....the kiwishare will ensure equivalent service is available or it wont happen.
who knows what technology will deliver before then..
cheers,
George


You might be missing the point here.....Telecom is putting in Fibre to the home not the Tier II, POT's does not work over fibre it's copper based




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maverick
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  #115252 7-Mar-2008 16:48
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cyril7:
remember here that Telecom no longer puts copper in the ground, all new subdivisions will be fibre, pure and simple it is IP based services to the home


Does Telecom have a greenfields fibre plan, maybe in the future, but currently I see no evidence around here, and there are some quite large new developments happening. I have noted fibre to the curb in these new developments, but nothing more.

Skys new HDi box sports a ethernet port, both Sky and Foxtel have stayed mum on its use, but I presume interactive as well as VOD type features are in the wings.

The alarm industry seems deeply backward. A couple of years ago a company I was developing IP and GPRS based logging gear for were trying to present IP interfaces for the alarm industry, from what i could see (from back at the design bench) they were not aware of future trends, didnt want to know and from what I can tell that still pretty much the case for many of them.

Cyril


Sky will be /are aware of this, when they choose to act on it will be their call.

Depends on when the development started I would guess and on if it was planned for with Telecom, there are a number of these developments happening now which are only fibre feed.

I agree some are already in this space, as I said befor AlarmNZ is working in this area now.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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cyril7
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  #115254 7-Mar-2008 16:53
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Most of the PONs technologies run the POTS service outside of the broadband service, I think GEPON is the only one that relies on VOIP. The current most popular PON being GPON encapsulates G.711 POTS service in a seperate GEM to the ethernet traffic and pulls it out in the ONT for copper presentation to the home.

Cyril

GEOMAX
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  #115263 7-Mar-2008 17:14
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maverick:
GEOMAX:
I agree with Penultimatehop  .
If you listen to the views of 2nd Tier Telco's you would accept defeat and swap over to Voip now.
In  reality as with the Australian CDMA closure.....the kiwishare will ensure equivalent service is available or it wont happen.
who knows what technology will deliver before then..
cheers,
George


You might be missing the point here.....Telecom is putting in Fibre to the home not the Tier II, POT's does not work over fibre it's copper based


Hi Maverick,
                 there is a big difference between  Telecom supplying fibre to the home in some trial areas and you supplying the VOIP and Internet services during this 12 month trial period  and mass changing over existing customers. I presume the intention is to end up with 100% of customers being 100% satisfied?
cheers,
George

PenultimateHop
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  #115265 7-Mar-2008 17:24
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maverick:
I'm actaully very aware of this and the numbersLaughing, just pointing out that in the next few years as we see diaup being passed in Numbers you will see the same for VOIP services, these products and service offering based around modem connections need to be aware of this and start planning an exit stratergy for the brave new world, remember here that Telecom no longer puts copper in the ground, all new subdivisions will be fibre, pure and simple it is IP based services to the home, this is just the start and is quite small but this is how services will be delivered in the future and will continue to grow.


I agree totally that people need to exit from modem based connectivity for alarms/STBs/etc; but the problem is the existing deployed base and how you accommodate those people who can't or won't shift.  I highly doubt the alarm companies are going to give people free alarm replacements; and I doubt the general population will be willing to pay for replacement.  This means that the incumbent telco will continue to support these requirements at the very least - and I would expect competitive service providers to do so as well.

I know that Telecom has announced plans from late 08 (or is it early 09?) to stop deploying copper to new subdivisions but actions speak louder than words and subdivisions going in right now aren't getting FTTH.  Remember that GPON supports native TDM transport with electrical interfaces on the ONT, so from the subscriber's perspective nothing has changed.  That TDM service can even be plugged into an existing TDM switch if required; although generally speaking from the OLT onwards it will be IP encapsulated.  As you well know there is the capability in most VoIP platforms and xPON systems to support low speed modems (no guarantees of 56k service).

maverick:

So for the new home owners what do they do they can have sky no problem as well as there IP services over fibre it just means Sky interactive isn't going to work, while the numbers are small at present no biggee for Sky and they will want the return on the current units they have , but as numbers grow and they see less revenue from interactive either they will have a statergy to bring new stb with IP based features or they won't purely their call but the home owner will forego his sky interactive before he will give up his Fibre Based Phone and Internet services of that ther is no doubt and the reason will be this...they won't have an option copper based services is no longer an option for them.


The copper vs. fibre argument is irrelevant.  From the end user perspective, there is still an analog UNI available for POTS - and the network needs to support the variants of POTS usage, including low speed data.

Anyone who doesn't is shooting themselves in the foot, and will lose customers to whoever can support the services required by the market today.  In the future, yeah, new services will come over IP... but we aren't there yet.

(Remember that many of these alarm companies and Sky will have relationships with a service provider, who they will put incredible pressure on to continue supporting their existing solutions.  No telco wants to cut off or irritate such a large existing userbase.)

 
 
 
 


maverick
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  #115266 7-Mar-2008 17:25
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GEOMAX:
maverick:
GEOMAX:
I agree with Penultimatehop  .
If you listen to the views of 2nd Tier Telco's you would accept defeat and swap over to Voip now.
In  reality as with the Australian CDMA closure.....the kiwishare will ensure equivalent service is available or it wont happen.
who knows what technology will deliver before then..
cheers,
George


You might be missing the point here.....Telecom is putting in Fibre to the home not the Tier II, POT's does not work over fibre it's copper based


Hi Maverick,
                 there is a big difference between  Telecom supplying fibre to the home in some trial areas and you supplying the VOIP and Internet services during this 12 month trial period  and mass changing over existing customers. I presume the intention is to end up with 100% of customers being 100% satisfied?
cheers,
George



Guess you will just have to ask Telecom then ....just pointing out my views we will see what happens in a few years Wink




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

cyril7
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  #115360 8-Mar-2008 09:31
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Not wanting to drag this on much more, but I happened to find the 22Nov cabnetisation briefing notes and quote the following.



1. Upgrading of existing passive cabinets:
A new, fibre-fed, DSLAM-equipped cabinet is installed
MPFs are double-terminated/jointed to the new cabinet and existing exchange MDF
Broadband services delivered from cabinet not the exchange (for the affected MPFs)

PSTN provided either from the exchange via copper feeder or from equipment in the cabinet

2. New cabinets:
As above (1);
Copper distribution cable re-routed via new cabinet, copper diversion


Also of note is this

This is not about closing exchanges
The exchange remains a copper centre

Not all lines will be cabinetised


So quite clearly POTS service will continue, the cabinetisation will only relate to DSL services, however new cabinets may gain local POTS line ports or POTS services from the local exchange will provide that capability.

So I guess my next questions are, what exactly will replace the NEAX POTS gear under the NGN. I presume it will be replaced by a VOIP/SIP(or other connect agent) network cloud, which at local exhange level will simply consist of ATA line ports, presumably in a similar physical format as the ISAMs (48POTSlines/card, 4cards/frame & GigE uplink) that can be deployed at either the local exhange or cabinets as appropriate for each situation, correct?

Does anyone know which vendor is supplying the line units and the core VOIP routing components?, and how far through deployment is the core routing gear. I understand there was a couple of years ago a major install of Juniper routers, presumably for data/internet services, is this same platform for the VOIP service.

Other question relates to physical exchanges themselves. Interesting note above is
This is not about closing exchanges
but we have also heard that Telecom wish to sell off alot of exchange realestate (to make something of the realestate boom I guess (sic)). From the briefing it would appear that most exchanges will only be moving around 50% of lines out to cabinets, some more, others less. That will still leave a lot of lines appearing at the site of the current local exhanges. If they do sell land, how will that be replaced, uber cabinets?

Cheers
Cyril

maverick
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  #115386 8-Mar-2008 14:31
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cyril7: Not wanting to drag this on much more, but I happened to find the 22Nov cabnetisation briefing notes and quote the following.



1. Upgrading of existing passive cabinets:
A new, fibre-fed, DSLAM-equipped cabinet is installed
MPFs are double-terminated/jointed to the new cabinet and existing exchange MDF
Broadband services delivered from cabinet not the exchange (for the affected MPFs)

PSTN provided either from the exchange via copper feeder or from equipment in the cabinet

2. New cabinets:
As above (1);
Copper distribution cable re-routed via new cabinet, copper diversion


Also of note is this

This is not about closing exchanges
The exchange remains a copper centre

Not all lines will be cabinetised


So quite clearly POTS service will continue, the cabinetisation will only relate to DSL services, however new cabinets may gain local POTS line ports or POTS services from the local exchange will provide that capability.

So I guess my next questions are, what exactly will replace the NEAX POTS gear under the NGN. I presume it will be replaced by a VOIP/SIP(or other connect agent) network cloud, which at local exhange level will simply consist of ATA line ports, presumably in a similar physical format as the ISAMs (48POTSlines/card, 4cards/frame & GigE uplink) that can be deployed at either the local exhange or cabinets as appropriate for each situation, correct?

Does anyone know which vendor is supplying the line units and the core VOIP routing components?, and how far through deployment is the core routing gear. I understand there was a couple of years ago a major install of Juniper routers, presumably for data/internet services, is this same platform for the VOIP service.

Other question relates to physical exchanges themselves. Interesting note above is
This is not about closing exchanges
but we have also heard that Telecom wish to sell off alot of exchange realestate (to make something of the realestate boom I guess (sic)). From the briefing it would appear that most exchanges will only be moving around 50% of lines out to cabinets, some more, others less. That will still leave a lot of lines appearing at the site of the current local exhanges. If they do sell land, how will that be replaced, uber cabinets?

Cheers
Cyril


I'm also not going to carry on with this to much either as we are going to have different interepreations of what will happen, just like with the whole LLU thing and the Cabnetisation plans, apparently it came as a suprise to a lot of people even though it was industry knowledge supplied to us all months and months in advance,

From those briefings look at the core diagrams they quite clearly show what equipment will be used for the core, as for the other part of the network (VOIP) no idea Telecom hasn't disclosed this as yet, but bet your bottom dollar it's not a POT's based replacement,

Telecom has been pretty open about what they are building so really it's up to everyone involved to ask the questions and interpret where they think this technology will take the industry,

Also what I said was Telecom is not putting copper in the ground for NEW subdivisions / developments only Fibre...make your own mind up about where you think there intentions lie....you honsetly think their intention is to sit on old technolgy POT's and let the years go by and not compete for business to all these new developments fed by Fibre ?, the main point I'm trying to point out Modem based tech is dying yes Telecom will continue to support for a while as they may have to but they will be moving to IP based services, and any business that thinks they will continue to survive with a modem based product is fooling themselves imho


Step 1.....Fibre only to new developmentsand subdivisions i.e. fibre to the home ...No copper feeds
Step 2.....Fibre to the Cabinets......Shortening the copper loop
Step 3.....???????? where is the next logical step do you think ?


Things to Think about
Cabinets vs Exchanges , Fibre vs Copper , Copper based Services vs Fibre Based Services and what this comes down to will be the one important thing the almighty Dollar Money mouth

how much will you save in a network with

less exchanges
less maintenance on the copper network vs a fibre network (anyone that has been in Telecom will know that copper is huge maintenance cost)
how many more services (more services more money) can you deliver over higher speed networks, ADSL2 will be fine for a couple of years for the internet and voice but in the future will it be ?? so how do you get ready for this next leap ....start planning for Fibre to the premises now how do you do this.....refer to points 1 , 2 & 3 above Wink,

This is just my interpretation on where I think Telecom may be going , honestly I could debate this for ever as I have some pretty pointed views on the industry and where I think it's going other, companies and people will have there views.
Time will tell which people saw this coming and which got stuck in the headlights, but what ever people decide you will have to pick a path as you can not afford to wait it's moving way to fast and companies will find it very hard to change if they get it wrong.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

PenultimateHop
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  #115394 8-Mar-2008 14:56
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cyril7: Not wanting to drag this on much more, but I happened to find the 22Nov cabnetisation briefing notes and quote the following.

So I guess my next questions are, what exactly will replace the NEAX POTS gear under the NGN. I presume it will be replaced by a VOIP/SIP(or other connect agent) network cloud, which at local exhange level will simply consist of ATA line ports, presumably in a similar physical format as the ISAMs (48POTSlines/card, 4cards/frame & GigE uplink) that can be deployed at either the local exhange or cabinets as appropriate for each situation, correct?

This would be a very good assumption.

cyril7:
Does anyone know which vendor is supplying the line units and the core VOIP routing components?, and how far through deployment is the core routing gear. I understand there was a couple of years ago a major install of Juniper routers, presumably for data/internet services, is this same platform for the VOIP service.


Alcatel-Lucent is Telecom's strategic partner for their NGN.  The core routing environment has been in and on for many years, based on Juniper.


Maverick,

I think that we have a small disconnect in what we are trying to say.  I have never said that Telecom will continue to offer POTS off legacy equipment that is TDM based in the core.  What I have said is that Telecom will continue to offer a POTS UNI to the subscriber, which may be delivered off a local ATA (VoIP hauled north); or from some other CO or cabinet based service.  No incumbent will be disabling POTS or not offering POTS (including low speed data) any time in the future.

cyril7
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  #115395 8-Mar-2008 14:59
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Phil, can you PM

maverick
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  #115413 8-Mar-2008 16:15
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Yep Stephen I can.
I had just turned it off for a while since I was getting a bit to many people using me as thier personal message boy Cry




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

maverick
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  #115414 8-Mar-2008 16:22
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PenultimateHop:
cyril7: Not wanting to drag this on much more, but I happened to find the 22Nov cabnetisation briefing notes and quote the following.

So I guess my next questions are, what exactly will replace the NEAX POTS gear under the NGN. I presume it will be replaced by a VOIP/SIP(or other connect agent) network cloud, which at local exhange level will simply consist of ATA line ports, presumably in a similar physical format as the ISAMs (48POTSlines/card, 4cards/frame & GigE uplink) that can be deployed at either the local exhange or cabinets as appropriate for each situation, correct?

This would be a very good assumption.

cyril7:
Does anyone know which vendor is supplying the line units and the core VOIP routing components?, and how far through deployment is the core routing gear. I understand there was a couple of years ago a major install of Juniper routers, presumably for data/internet services, is this same platform for the VOIP service.


Alcatel-Lucent is Telecom's strategic partner for their NGN. The core routing environment has been in and on for many years, based on Juniper.


Maverick,

I think that we have a small disconnect in what we are trying to say. I have never said that Telecom will continue to offer POTS off legacy equipment that is TDM based in the core. What I have said is that Telecom will continue to offer a POTS UNI to the subscriber, which may be delivered off a local ATA (VoIP hauled north); or from some other CO or cabinet based service. No incumbent will be disabling POTS or not offering POTS (including low speed data) any time in the future.


Understand that but what I am trying to say is that no matter what, VOIP has an inherant problem with "Modem" based  access services...basically no one will be able to support it reliably in a VOIP world so even though it is Pots from the ATA / DSLAM , RGW whatever to the custy once it's VOIP in whatever part of the network, modem access devices will not be a reliable option so companies have got to start planning for this.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

https://www.facebook.com/wxccommunications

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