Another thread about the parts of the country that still can't get broadband

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Reply # 2155226 6-Jan-2019 12:08

hio77:
Lastman:

Thinking out loud...the backhaul cables and FTTH feeding cables are probably in conduit for expansion and protection? I know they have inspection pits every so often. Given that the OLT range is about 20km, putting the feed cables back through to the pits and splitting them from there would cover a large part of the rurals at not great expense ie using the OLTs already in place.

Except your not considering all the other constraints to using gpon, power level requirements per splitter etc.

then you have to consider things like transport To the man holes, installation of gear to the properties, traffic management to allow all this to be done safely, Cost of the further conduit and ONT's.

I don't disagree, I'm in a rural area, i'd love fibre here rather than the crazy things i do to optimize.

but i do need to be realistic.

I see power companies in the best position to offer rural services, take for example Vector. While upgrading their Power network, could string along fibre and make double use out of their planend work.

Unison have already done this, and they beat chorus in pricing..

People are saying rural expansion is vastly more expensive but are not giving details, I’m just trying to get a handle on it. Urban installations also require ONTs and traffic management etc.

Power companies, Unison in my area, may see it worthwhile but Chorus have more fibre in the ground. Also, Chorus get pretty interested, pretty quick when someone’s heading for their patch, which is part of the reason for the staistic starting the thread.

cyril7

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Reply # 2155227 6-Jan-2019 12:11

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Your correct about lines companies, it's a double win for them as they get in the residential fibre delivery market, plus enhance their scada systems plus easier access to smart metering solutions.

For chorus to reticulate they would most likely be doing it underground, but for a lines company the poles are already there and not going anywhere.

Cyril

sbiddle

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Reply # 2155230 6-Jan-2019 12:28

DarthKermit:

I wonder why the town of Norsewood (population around 300) isn't getting UFB?

Are you able to provide a source of Norsewood population being 300? The figure is quoted online in several media articles and Wikipedia, yet doesn't seem to match up with any data I can find and I've actually spent about 45 minutes looking online as I was curious myself.

The closest I can find is a population estimate of around 110 in the town itself - the wider Norsewood-Herbertville area has just over 3000 people in the 2013 census. The town itself is incredibly small, and has pretty much 100% VDSL coverage of every property.

Even if the number was 300 in the wider township area the population density would count against them as they would be nowhere near the density of other examples above such as Waimarama.

tim0001

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Reply # 2155231 6-Jan-2019 12:33

Going back a few pages to hio77’s comment about light at the end of the tunnel for Conklin users, I’m interested to know how much speed improvement is probable when upgrading to EUBA. How much should I get my hopes up?

I see in Chorus’s Broadband Coverage spreadsheet that I’m scheduled to be upgraded to EUBA by Sept 2020. I’m guessing that because VDSL2 is not scheduled for my DSLAM that the backhaul may remain as copper? There’s probably no cheap options for high speed backhaul from our DSLAM. (eDMR would require a new repeater site, and alternative of 8 km fibre would be hard to justify) .

Does any one know what is the minimum backhaul speed Chorus will provide for EUBA? (Currently our Conklin has 2 x E1s via a 8 km 50 pair cable I think).

quickymart

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Reply # 2155233 6-Jan-2019 12:42

sbiddle:

DarthKermit:

I wonder why the town of Norsewood (population around 300) isn't getting UFB?

Are you able to provide a source of Norsewood population being 300? The figure is quoted online in several media articles and Wikipedia, yet doesn't seem to match up with any data I can find and I've actually spent about 45 minutes looking online as I was curious myself.

The closest I can find is a population estimate of around 110 in the town itself - the wider Norsewood-Herbertville area has just over 3000 people in the 2013 census. The town itself is incredibly small, and has pretty much 100% VDSL coverage of every property.

Even if the number was 300 in the wider township area the population density would count against them as they would be nowhere near the density of other examples above such as Waimarama.

Sounds a lot like Blackball (where my Grandad came from) with a population of 300 - they're in line to get fibre too!

hio77

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Reply # 2155234 6-Jan-2019 12:45

tim0001:

Going back a few pages to hio77’s comment about light at the end of the tunnel for Conklin users, I’m interested to know how much speed improvement is probable when upgrading to EUBA. How much should I get my hopes up?

I see in Chorus’s Broadband Coverage spreadsheet that I’m scheduled to be upgraded to EUBA by Sept 2020. I’m guessing that because VDSL2 is not scheduled for my DSLAM that the backhaul may remain as copper? There’s probably no cheap options for high speed backhaul from our DSLAM. (eDMR would require a new repeater site, and alternative of 8 km fibre would be hard to justify) .

Does any one know what is the minimum backhaul speed Chorus will provide for EUBA? (Currently our Conklin has 2 x E1s via a 8 km 50 pair cable I think).

I'm told the eDMR fed sites will equally do VDSL.

the bandwidth that eDMR links can do these days isn't too bad.

a conklin could be anything from a single E1 to 4 E1's if your lucky.

If your really lucky, it will be an ASAM rather than a Conklin.

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tim0001

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Reply # 2155263 6-Jan-2019 13:09

I’m pretty sure our Conklin is still 2 x E1 based on these Samknows download stats.

hio77

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Reply # 2155264 6-Jan-2019 13:10

Looks like it.

That's not bad for a conklin though tbh.

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BarTender

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Reply # 2155426 6-Jan-2019 20:09

sbiddle:
Lastman:

Waimarama, an isolated seaside holiday retreat is on the 2022 fibre roll-out, thanks to famous resident Rod Drury, no doubt, but high population/production areas areas like the Heretaunga Plains, Bay of Plenty and the Canterbury Plains will never get it, I don't see that.

Rubbish. It has absolutely nothing to do with Rod.

Waimarama fully meets the requirements of the UFB2+ rollout.

There are plenty of places getting UFB coverage as part of UFB2+ that have similar populations - Hihi (with a 2013 census population of 170 population) and Matapouri (2013 census figure of 160 people) and are just a couple of examples that are both less than Waimarama's 2013 figure of 190

Population density is just as important as population, and in many of these small townships that are (comparatively) dense, UFB simply makes sense.

Knowing Rod a few years ago I know he had point to point broadband installed on his holiday home in Wimaz with a local WISP. I did successfully lobby the internal Spark Mobile COW team to install a COW at the local exchange and then they back hauled it via a microwave link.
So I am sorry unless Rod funded it which I doubt as he was pretty happy with the WISP service he had I am calling BS.
Actually the COW was just a 3G one so they backhauled it over the ATM core with stacked E1s.

atomeara

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Reply # 2155429 6-Jan-2019 20:16

hio77:

tim0001:

Going back a few pages to hio77’s comment about light at the end of the tunnel for Conklin users, I’m interested to know how much speed improvement is probable when upgrading to EUBA. How much should I get my hopes up?

I see in Chorus’s Broadband Coverage spreadsheet that I’m scheduled to be upgraded to EUBA by Sept 2020. I’m guessing that because VDSL2 is not scheduled for my DSLAM that the backhaul may remain as copper? There’s probably no cheap options for high speed backhaul from our DSLAM. (eDMR would require a new repeater site, and alternative of 8 km fibre would be hard to justify) .

Does any one know what is the minimum backhaul speed Chorus will provide for EUBA? (Currently our Conklin has 2 x E1s via a 8 km 50 pair cable I think).

I'm told the eDMR fed sites will equally do VDSL.

the bandwidth that eDMR links can do these days isn't too bad.

a conklin could be anything from a single E1 to 4 E1's if your lucky.

If your really lucky, it will be an ASAM rather than a Conklin.

I have asked Chorus what they plan to do for backhaul on sites with copper backhaul currently. Some sites are going to fibre and eDMR is certainly an option.
I asked if they would retain any copper backhaul technology, I am still waiting for an answer, it was asked a week out from Christmas so they have been away (I suspect the answer is no, everything will go fibre or eDMR)

Most sites on eDMR will stay on eDMR, I have been advised that some will see no capacity increase or upgrade on the eDMR side, they will offer ADSL 2+ but VDSL may not be available. As is the case with some eDMR fed sites now (such as Great Barrier Island, Kohukohu - eDMR is well oversubscribed here, Ohura, Glenorchy and Oban, Steward Island)

I know for several sites in Auckland the copper fed Conkins and ASAMs are getting upgraded to fibre backhaul, Bethells Beach is about 7km in what I would describe as challenging environment, it will likely need to be installed in the road corridor for a large part. Shelly Beach is 5km install and there are lots of other ones. I would say most in Auckland are going to be fibre fed, the cost to build a new eDMR site is not cheap, if you need a repeater on another hill, to get it back to the rest of the network it really adds up.

Fibre install costs for both Bethells Beach and Shelly Beach are around 400k each I have been told. Both of these sites service around 70 connection. I suspect this will see people switching back from fixed wireless in the case of Shelly Beach, Bethells Beach doesn't really have mobile coverage to start with.

I will be interesting to see how this all plays out against the RCG / RBI 2 play which seems to have been rather slow to get moving so far. I have seen very little other than some high level coverage maps and it is mostly meant to be done by the end of 2021. I know all the WISPs have been trucking along at full pace on there part.

As a final note, Chorus are required / regulated / committed to providing a non contented back haul network for there fibre fed copper broadband network (this does not include eDMR sites or legacy conklins / ASAM which should be gone by the end of 2020 anyway). They will upgrade the backhaul as required to ensure it does not become congested, they report on it monthly for any cabinet reaching over 80% utilisation over a 5min period. So you should in most cases get near your sync speed as long as your ISP is managing there side correctly as well.

They have also committed to providing a non contented back haul for there UFB but I don't think there regulated on that (not to be mixed up with the UFB access network)

Copper backhaul reports:

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/sla-reports/121

Fibre backhaul reports:

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/sla-reports/123

Chorus Congestion Free Network:

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/chorus/files/File/Congestion%20free%20networks%20white%20paper.pdf

This doc says 15mins but I am pretty sure ComCom after consultation went with 5min

raytaylor

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Reply # 2155431 6-Jan-2019 20:18

cyril7: 3 digits,..... 5 years ago, nah, in the mid 80s with the introduction of the NEAX's we moved to the 7 digit numbering still in use. That's nearly 30yrs before you mentioned.

Unless someone has better detail regarding the number system history.

Cyril

I talk to many rural people and they might say something like "Oh you should ring john down the road, his phone number is 436" which means the first 4 digits are the same as everyone else in the area.

When I lived in Wairoa, about 10 years ago, a few local businesses still had 4 digit numbers on their signs because the whole district is 838xxxx for wairoa township 837xxxx for rural and surrounding villages.

Ray Taylor
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atomeara

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Reply # 2155433 6-Jan-2019 20:22

BarTender:

Knowing Rod a few years ago I know he had point to point broadband installed on his holiday home in Wimaz with a local WISP. I did successfully lobby the internal Spark Mobile COW team to install a COW at the local exchange and then they back hauled it via a microwave link.
So I am sorry unless Rod funded it which I doubt as he was pretty happy with the WISP service he had I am calling BS.
Actually the COW was just a 3G one so they backhauled it over the ATM core with stacked E1s.

Waimarama was meant to get VDSL under RBI1 but Chorus swapped it for "another site", I asked them about this a couple of years ago as it was on the original plans but never happend. They didn't give me much detail other than saying the change was approved by MBIE.

raytaylor

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Reply # 2155434 6-Jan-2019 20:23

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sbiddle:

Lastman:

Waimarama, an isolated seaside holiday retreat is on the 2022 fibre roll-out, thanks to famous resident Rod Drury, no doubt, but high population/production areas areas like the Heretaunga Plains, Bay of Plenty and the Canterbury Plains will never get it, I don't see that.

Rubbish. It has absolutely nothing to do with Rod.

Waimarama fully meets the requirements of the UFB2+ rollout.

There are plenty of places getting UFB coverage as part of UFB2+ that have similar populations - Hihi (with a 2013 census population of 170 population) and Matapouri (2013 census figure of 160 people) and are just a couple of examples that are both less than Waimarama's 2013 figure of 190

Population density is just as important as population, and in many of these small townships that are (comparatively) dense, UFB simply makes sense.

You might be thinking of how Rod funded our fixed wireless for the village. There is an old 10mbit? microwave link and bonded VDSL from the top of the hill feeding the local exchange which then feeds DSL, or we have a 250mbit microwave link heading out there from hastings.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
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For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

raytaylor

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Reply # 2155439 6-Jan-2019 20:31

Lastman:

Fair enough, but I believe Rod lobbied for the cell service there, that meant there was fibre put out there( or perhaps a microwave link or something?) and so made the FTTH a lot cheaper in relation.

The mini vodafone tower was fed by the same microwave link which backhauled to the exchange, and then a fiber cable was run up to the mini vf tower. It only had a few megabits of capacity at most.

To get UFB out there, they are running a new fiber cable from the maraetotara exchange out to the end of the current fiber that feeds the cell tower, and a rural pcm cabinet.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

BarTender

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Reply # 2155440 6-Jan-2019 20:33

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Lastman: People are saying rural expansion is vastly more expensive but are not giving details, I’m just trying to get a handle on it. Urban installations also require ONTs and traffic management etc.

Power companies, Unison in my area, may see it worthwhile but Chorus have more fibre in the ground. Also, Chorus get pretty interested, pretty quick when someone’s heading for their patch, which is part of the reason for the staistic starting the thread.

The main cost is trenching in new fibre many KMs. The OLT which is the other end of the ONT in your house is around 100K from memory depending on which model. Then the Long Range 40k 10gbit optics and any repeaters tend to bump up the cost when the run goes over 40k.
Plus you often have new core links required from a central region to the new exchange and then from the exchange to your address.

So my rule of thumb is $10k per km. Then add $100k if a new OLT is required as a location is over 10km away from an existing exchange that already has fibre and just required a new connection.
Then add another 10% for contingency or so.
Lastly one issue I knew of was resourcing as Chorus is paid for completing the civil work and having the service able to be ordered as part of the UFB build. Downers / Visionstream etc are paid by Chorus to do the work. If they have very tight time-frames to deliver service in urban or semi urban areas sending a crew out to do a single build for a few weeks might have an impact to the UFB build timelines.

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