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236 posts

Master Geek


  # 2156473 8-Jan-2019 15:27
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Coil:

BarTender:


I always wished that Chorus could just say "Sorry we are shutting down BUBA and not offering service anymore but here is the cost to upgrade your cabinet" and see if any communities wanted to crowd fund it. But with that they would still pay the regulated price for broadband which always got people up in arms.



Then those communities will most definitely have a genuine economic requirement, Because the funding came from with in the local economy and not the "I can't stream netflix at 8PM" charity. 



And when I suggested the fibre roll-out could be currently considered the same I got the bash!

6615 posts

Uber Geek
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  # 2156475 8-Jan-2019 15:32
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Lastman:
Coil:

 

BarTender:

 

 

 

I always wished that Chorus could just say "Sorry we are shutting down BUBA and not offering service anymore but here is the cost to upgrade your cabinet" and see if any communities wanted to crowd fund it. But with that they would still pay the regulated price for broadband which always got people up in arms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then those communities will most definitely have a genuine economic requirement, Because the funding came from with in the local economy and not the "I can't stream netflix at 8PM" charity. 

 



And when I suggested the fibre roll-out could be currently considered the same I got the bash!

 

How you mean? If you were saying UFB Fibre to everyone govt funded under the UFB project I would have been anti that. I am against the tax payer fronting the bill for the rollout further to the high density areas already established. 

If the option is there for communities to invest themselves and obtain GPON fibre then I'd be all for that. If that was your point and I argued against I am sorry I mistook you.


 
 
 
 


236 posts

Master Geek


  # 2156480 8-Jan-2019 15:42
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Coil:

Lastman:
Coil:


BarTender:


 


I always wished that Chorus could just say "Sorry we are shutting down BUBA and not offering service anymore but here is the cost to upgrade your cabinet" and see if any communities wanted to crowd fund it. But with that they would still pay the regulated price for broadband which always got people up in arms.


 



 


Then those communities will most definitely have a genuine economic requirement, Because the funding came from with in the local economy and not the "I can't stream netflix at 8PM" charity. 




And when I suggested the fibre roll-out could be currently considered the same I got the bash!


How you mean? If you were saying UFB Fibre to everyone govt funded under the UFB project I would have been anti that. I am against the tax payer fronting the bill for the rollout further to the high density areas already established. 

If the option is there for communities to invest themselves and obtain GPON fibre then I'd be all for that. If that was your point and I argued against I am sorry I mistook you.



I hope you’d at least throw in an $1100 discount voucher to go with that!

6615 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user


# 2156481 8-Jan-2019 15:49
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Lastman:
Coil:

 

Lastman:
Coil:

 

 

 

BarTender:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always wished that Chorus could just say "Sorry we are shutting down BUBA and not offering service anymore but here is the cost to upgrade your cabinet" and see if any communities wanted to crowd fund it. But with that they would still pay the regulated price for broadband which always got people up in arms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then those communities will most definitely have a genuine economic requirement, Because the funding came from with in the local economy and not the "I can't stream netflix at 8PM" charity. 

 

 

 



And when I suggested the fibre roll-out could be currently considered the same I got the bash!

 

 

 

How you mean? If you were saying UFB Fibre to everyone govt funded under the UFB project I would have been anti that. I am against the tax payer fronting the bill for the rollout further to the high density areas already established. 

If the option is there for communities to invest themselves and obtain GPON fibre then I'd be all for that. If that was your point and I argued against I am sorry I mistook you.

 



I hope you’d at least throw in an $1100 discount voucher to go with that!

 

 

 

Yeah, Happily.
Chances of that discount being taken advantage of would be 1/10,000 after the quote for the build has been presented. money-mouth


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  # 2156483 8-Jan-2019 15:55
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atomeara: I was not suggesting 5.4 million would cover the costs of upgrade, that is by my calculations about how much money the remaining 10,000 BUBA customers could bring in to Chorus per year.

 

Based on $45 per connection * 10,000 * 12 months

 

There are around 350 cabinets left to go.

 

156 by Sept 2019 (funding appears to be committed for all of these)

 

195 by Sept 2020 

 

8 show as not planned. I assume they will get upgraded, moved to another cabinet or turned off if there are no customers on them.

 

I don't think Chorus can withdraw DSL for customers with it currently can they?

 

Looking at the details for Hot Water Beach, that looks like it is just a PCM cabinet, CCM maps and wireline both show the Broadband cabinet servicing Hot Water Beach is the fibre fed one on the main road.

 

 

You're right on both points. I hadn't checked the EUBA layer in CCM and saw that HWB is all being services as EUBA from the roadside cabinet 3km away so the 13Mbit is all they will ever get but thankfully they are EUBA and not BUBA.

 

I hadn't seen the Chorus planning for upgrades but if funding is committed to upgrade all the cabinets at least the 156 by Sept this year and the remainder apart from the random ASAMs that haven't yet been switched off like the one in the ANZ Datacentre then it does appear that Chorus have committed to upgrading them all.

 

I think part of the problem is like existing power Chorus can't decommission existing connections as I seem to remember there were a few folks on very marginal DSL connections a few years ago that when they got moved from BUBA to EUBA the minimum sync rate was raised to 64kbit something like that and they wouldn't sync. So I do think that is part of the problem is that Chorus don't have either the teeth or the desire to disconnect service from the really difficult connections that are too costly to upgrade. I would rather see them spend more money on offering new and exciting services.






263 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2156490 8-Jan-2019 16:07
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BarTender:

 

atomeara: I was not suggesting 5.4 million would cover the costs of upgrade, that is by my calculations about how much money the remaining 10,000 BUBA customers could bring in to Chorus per year.

 

Based on $45 per connection * 10,000 * 12 months

 

There are around 350 cabinets left to go.

 

156 by Sept 2019 (funding appears to be committed for all of these)

 

195 by Sept 2020 

 

8 show as not planned. I assume they will get upgraded, moved to another cabinet or turned off if there are no customers on them.

 

I don't think Chorus can withdraw DSL for customers with it currently can they?

 

Looking at the details for Hot Water Beach, that looks like it is just a PCM cabinet, CCM maps and wireline both show the Broadband cabinet servicing Hot Water Beach is the fibre fed one on the main road.

 

 

You're right on both points. I hadn't checked the EUBA layer in CCM and saw that HWB is all being services as EUBA from the roadside cabinet 3km away so the 13Mbit is all they will ever get but thankfully they are EUBA and not BUBA.

 

I hadn't seen the Chorus planning for upgrades but if funding is committed to upgrade all the cabinets at least the 156 by Sept this year and the remainder apart from the random ASAMs that haven't yet been switched off like the one in the ANZ Datacentre then it does appear that Chorus have committed to upgrading them all.

 

I think part of the problem is like existing power Chorus can't decommission existing connections as I seem to remember there were a few folks on very marginal DSL connections a few years ago that when they got moved from BUBA to EUBA the minimum sync rate was raised to 64kbit something like that and they wouldn't sync. So I do think that is part of the problem is that Chorus don't have either the teeth or the desire to disconnect service from the really difficult connections that are too costly to upgrade. I would rather see them spend more money on offering new and exciting services.

 

 

They haven't made anything noise about it via an kind of press release (which I am surprised about), but the SP broadband spreadsheet has been updated, I have had it confirmed for a few cabinets from the Chorus Program Manager via a person I deal with at Chorus, I have seen some presentations sent to local communities and there were / are a heap of Traffic Management Plans on Auckland Transport website for it new ducting (see below)

 

I have eye balled one in Titirangi, all new ducting up Carter Road

 

 

 

 

As few new products, they tried a Business VDSL product with higher SLA but there was no interest in the market, so got canned.

 

There looking at a new Business UFB product (BS2) but with a higher restore SLA.

 

There testing 10GPON shortly, but I am not sure how much market there is for it at this stage.

 

There is Bitstream 4 that will replace HSNS Premium.

 

There reworking the backhaul / CRT pricing and product shortly but I don't imagine there will be any huge changes

 

There doing a bit with exchange and wifi colo.

 

There also looking at UFB Nationwide Tail Extn.

 

Other than 10GPON none of these will be very interesting for consumers.

 

However the UFB Nationwide Tail Extn will certainly destroy a large chunk of the wholesale backhaul market (subject to pricing) as many smaller ISPs will just need one handover to do all Chorus UFB. There will still be a need for other LCF areas, Enable, Ultra Fast Fibre and Northpower.


236 posts

Master Geek


  # 2156540 8-Jan-2019 17:10
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The Telecom Users Association And InternetNZ both have some alignment with my own thinking advocating a "fibre Like" service to the whole country.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/88778965/300m-ufb-expansion-will-bring-fibreoptic-broadband-to-85pc-of-the-country


 
 
 
 


4931 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2156553 8-Jan-2019 17:15
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So is this thread about parts of the country which still can't can't get broadband or is it now about parts of the country which can't get UFB?


19 posts

Geek


  # 2156594 8-Jan-2019 17:49
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Thinking of the situations where hills and distance make eDMR and/or fibre very expensive to provide fast DSL backhaul (ie the DSL backhaul presumably stays on copper?). Is Chorus prevented from decommissioning their DSL even if RCG provides a service that is say 10 times faster? I can almost feel Chorus’s pain.


2846 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2156602 8-Jan-2019 18:12
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tim0001:

 

Thinking of the situations where hills and distance make eDMR and/or fibre very expensive to provide fast DSL backhaul (ie the DSL backhaul presumably stays on copper?). Is Chorus prevented from decommissioning their DSL even if RCG provides a service that is say 10 times faster? I can almost feel Chorus’s pain.

 

 

eDMR provides plenty fast enough backhaul at 1gbps rates for DSL backhauls. The issue with eDMR is now the hard ones where the terrain would require multiple hops rather than 2 point to point, getting power there may be incredibly expensive as I don't think they have sorted out a cost effective solution to power the the Ericsson gear on a solar + battery with generator backup combo or a land owner(s) demands some crazy amount of money to put it on there and annual lease.

 

The problem with Telecom and now Spark and Chorus is they *always* over-engineer everything with the thought that this could be carrying a 111 call and someones life could depend on it working.








4663 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2156603 8-Jan-2019 18:14
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Lastman:

 

The Telecom Users Association And InternetNZ both have some alignment with my own thinking advocating a "fibre Like" service to the whole country.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/88778965/300m-ufb-expansion-will-bring-fibreoptic-broadband-to-85pc-of-the-country

 

 

"Fibre like" and "Fibre" are different - "fibre like" normally refers to the likes of VDSL.


1382 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2156607 8-Jan-2019 18:24
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Here are my thoughts.

In terms of coverage - as far as I can see, there are plenty of places in NZ where it is not possible to get internet, there are also places where internet exists - but the capability is below a resonable usage threshold. Sometimes these places can be right next to a high coverage area.

In terms of costs - RBI appears to from my perspective to cost more than the equivalent fixed line service. Personally, I think plans should be priced regardless of delivery mechanism. If a company offers $100 for an uncapped plan on fixed line, the same plan should be offered in RBI. Otherwise it is just location based pricing.

In terms of software engineering we have a term called social debt. To put it bluntly, the people involved in the development process are operating in a suboptimal or constrained manner. This can be for many reasons, lack of knowledge, lack of opportunity to communicate, lack of opportunity to innovate, lack of access to the latest tools and equipment etc. I think the result of social debt (in s/w engineering) can be seen in the inability to tackle certain types of engineering problems within that environment.

When we look at provisioning the internet, I think that it is important to provision it, not just to the population (individuals) but also by area - regardless of population. To me, provisioning to an area enables that area (resource) to be used and innovated in ways that we may not yet perceive - it is called I think - creating opportunity.

I think we often create opportunity in other areas where ROI cannot be readily measured in dollar terms. We teach people to read and write - out of that knowledge can be gained and shared. We encourage the development of the arts and science and engineering because in any pool of people over a period of time innovation and development occurs.

I would suggest that social collaboration and through that information propagation, is like monetary supply - it has a velocity. The higher the velocity, the higher the level of planned opportunity and unforseen opportunity (in s/w engineering we call this latter part Disruption) exists.




Software Engineer

 


40 posts

Geek


  # 2156613 8-Jan-2019 18:33
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I noticed a few people talking about upgrades to cabinets, is there a website where you can see when/if your local cabinet is being updated, currently my local one doesn't have *DSL capability, I'm personally happy with my fixed line wireless (only 6 up, but more than sufficient for several HD video streams) (and wireless is 100% the way to go for rural users outside of townships), but having more options than just sat may give me a bit more leverage with my small ISP for getting a higher data cap ;), which imo is far more of an issue for most rural users, vs getting 20 mbit+ connections

19 posts

Geek


  # 2156631 8-Jan-2019 19:02
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RedactedRetracted: I noticed a few people talking about upgrades to cabinets, is there a website where you can see when/if your local cabinet is being updated, currently my local one doesn't have *DSL capability, I'm personally happy with my fixed line wireless (only 6 up, but more than sufficient for several HD video streams) (and wireless is 100% the way to go for rural users outside of townships), but having more options than just sat may give me a bit more leverage with my small ISP for getting a higher data cap ;), which imo is far more of an issue for most rural users, vs getting 20 mbit+ connections

 

 

 

https://sp.chorus.co.nz/report/broadband-coverage


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Uber Geek

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  # 2156763 9-Jan-2019 09:00
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TwoSeven: In terms of costs - RBI appears to from my perspective to cost more than the equivalent fixed line service. Personally, I think plans should be priced regardless of delivery mechanism. If a company offers $100 for an uncapped plan on fixed line, the same plan should be offered in RBI. Otherwise it is just location based pricing.

 

I think that premise that Mobile Broadband can offer a true Unlimited plan is incredibly naive. Unlimited Fixed Broadband is exactly that, unlimited without any "we will limit your speed after x GB". Whereas unlimited mobile is always "we will rate limit you after a certain data limit is hit".  Radio spectrum is a finite resource and you can't magic up more capacity without building more towers.

 

There are people (thankfully a small number but it is double digits of people) who are literally moving 40+ Terabytes of data per month across their broadband connection and if that were to happen on Mobile the site would be unusable especially if everyone does it during peak time.

 

Caps and limits on the number of Mobile Broadband connections per cellsite or region are in place for a very good reason.

 

I could see in the future "off-peak" options where data could be uncapped or have a larger off peak cap from midnight - 6am. Or an option similar tot he current "unlimited" plans offered for mobile devices only where you get rate limited to a very slow speed after you exceed your soft limit rather than being charged overage. The issue there is billing can be problematic with time of day as if you have a long running TCP session (like what you get when you download a large file) I have seen different billing platforms behave differently and only accure the data once the TCP session closes rather than reporting it every 5/10/15 mins or whatever.






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