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Topic # 245209 23-Jan-2019 18:13
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Hi, 

 

I'm after some advice please on whether to stick it out on my recent upgrade from ADSL to VDSL.  The performance has dropped compared to the ADSL line, and my question is will it improve with DLM or is it already at the limit for my line and I'm better going back to ADSL?

 

I'm in Wellington, about 1.9k from the exchange.   I installed a master filter about 12 months ago based on advice I'd read here.  The modem is a Vigor 130 running 3.8.4 modem 8 firmware.  I've also tried modem 4 firmware, with no change.  My ISP is flip.

 

Prior to the upgrade SpeedTest was consistently getting about 16Mb/s DS, just under 1Mb/s US, ping times just over 20ms.  Pinging the local ISP gateway from my router was consistently around 19-20ms.  For context, prior to installing the master filter, this used to be anywhere from 10-14Mb/s and I'd get about 10-30 drops per day.  Since installing the master the line has been rock solid, ie 0 drops other than for updates and moving kit around, and consistent sync times.

 

The upgrade happened yesterday.

 

Now I get about 18Mb/s DS (about 12% improvement), 0.2Mb/s US (about 80% downgrade), and the fastest pings to the ISP gateway are now about 31ms (about 50% downgrade). 

 

Generally speak most things seem to be more sluggish relative to the performance I had prior to the upgrade, eg a lot longer time for page to start loading, then it comes down all at once, streaming media has longer delayes, RASing into work is more sluggish (and often max's out the upstream).

 

At first I thought no way is this ok, I'd better go back to ADSL, however I remembered reading about DLM here a while back so I'm wondering if that is likely to improve things over time in my specific case.

 

Here's the 130's stats prior to upgrade:

 

--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : ADSL2+ Annex A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 18744000 bps US Actual Rate : 1092000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 19412000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1096000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Fast
DS Interleave Depth : 32 US Interleave Depth : 1
NE Current Attenuation : 27 dB Cur SNR Margin : 6 dB
DS actual PSD : 19. 9 dB US actual PSD : 12. 4 dB
NE Rcvd Cells : 797861145 NE Xmitted Cells : 20021303
NE CRC Count : 1493 FE CRC Count : 0
NE ES Count : 1288 FE ES Count : 0
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : fe004452 ITU Version[1] : 41590000
ADSL Firmware Version : 05-07-03-0F-00-01
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 14 dB Far SNR Margin : 6 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b5004946 CO ITU Version[1] : 544e82b8
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IFTN >

 

The stats after upgrade:

 

---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
Running Mode : 8B State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 21181000 bps US Actual Rate : 361000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 21336488 bps US Attainable Rate : 360000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 89 US Interleave Depth : 67
NE Current Attenuation : 31 dB Cur SNR Margin : 9 dB
DS actual PSD : -5.-3 dB US actual PSD : 14. 5 dB
NE CRC Count : 23 FE CRC Count : 27
NE ES Count : 11 FE ES Count : 130
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : fe004452 ITU Version[1] : 41590000
VDSL Firmware Version : 05-07-09-0F-01-07 [with Vectoring support]
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 38 dB Far SNR Margin : 9 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b500494b CO ITU Version[1] : 4e530101
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IKNS >

 

 

 

So, should I wait out the DLM process to see if this improves, or should I just go back to ADSL for now.  BTW fibre is due in my street late 2019.

 

Cheers,

 

Dunc


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  Reply # 2166427 23-Jan-2019 18:21
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your US attenuation is horrible.

 

@hio77 might be able to provide some more advice


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  Reply # 2166442 23-Jan-2019 18:43
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If the move to VDSL was only yesterday, I'd let it settle for a few days yet - DLM will be more aggressive with changes in the first week or so - monitor it each day, and see what you're getting.

 

Looking at both the old and new stats, it's definitely borderline as to which is better, but I wouldn't panic yet.

 

Have you checked the internal wiring recently - just making sure there's no corrosion on the connectors etc?


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2166443 23-Jan-2019 18:45
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to me it looks like your not really getting US0, alternatively could simply be the power level on it.

 

 

 

Given you already have a splitter installed, your probably getting the best VDSL will supply and probably better off on ADSL instead.

 

 

 

 

 

Particularly on the newer profiles, VDSL is VERY conservative in US0 compared to ADSL which will pump right down it. You would see even worse performance on 17a. 





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.




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  Reply # 2166492 23-Jan-2019 20:16
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Thanks for the quick responses everyone.

 

I've checked the connectors between the modem and the termination box on the side of the house, but not the actual termination box, as I don't have the special driver to open it, plus it looks well weather sealed so I don't want to disturb it.  The connectors I can see are either side of the master filter, and at the wall port where the modem is plugged in.  All look pristine.

 

Jase2985 refers the US attenuation being horrible.  The stats I reported are via the ssh command line output, which only has a NE attenuation figure. I thought that is the DS attenuation, did I get that wrong, is it actually the US attenuation?  I checked the webpage version of the 130's stats, it shows both attenuation figures, Near End at 31dB and Far End 38dB.  The pre upgrade stats showed a NE attentuation of 27dB by comparison.

 

Based on these responses I'm not holding much hope that DLM will improve things, but I'm grateful for the useful replies none the less.

 

How long should I wait for DLM to make itself known?  When does it typically run?  Every 24hrs, every few days, or should I wait longer?


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  Reply # 2166508 23-Jan-2019 20:42
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first 10 days its more aggressive, and runs all the time, so will make changes as it sees fit

 

best thing to do is not make the modem reconnect if you can help it




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  Reply # 2166632 24-Jan-2019 08:04
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Thanks.  So far the sync rates haven't changed, however I did reboot the modem to put it into bridge mode yesterday morning.

 

Stats from the 130's web console this morning:

 

 

 

ATU-R Information
Type: VDSL2
Hardware: Annex A
Firmware: 05-07-09-0F-01-07
Power Mngt Mode: DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Line State: SHOWTIME
Running Mode: 8B
Vendor ID: fe004452 41590000
ATU-C Information
Vendor ID: b500494b 4e530101 [IKNS]
Line Statistics

Downstream Upstream
Actual Rate 21181 Kbps 361 Kbps
Attainable Rate 19519 Kbps 360 Kbps
Path Mode Interleave Interleave
Interleave Depth 89 67
Actual PSD -5.-3 dB 14. 5 dB
Near End Far End
Trellis ON ON
Bitswap OFF ON
SNR Margin 7 dB 9 dB
Attenuation 31 dB 38 dB
CRC 57 27
FECS 2558002 s 14 s
ES 28 s 130 s
SES 0 s 107 s
LOSS 0 s 107 s
UAS 27 s 0 s
HEC Errors 0 0
RS Corrections 0 0
LOS Failure 0 0
LOF Failure 0 0
LPR Failure 0 0
NCD Failure 0 0
LCD Failure 0 0
NFEC 48 255
RFEC 2 16
LYSMB 104 5680




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  Reply # 2167274 25-Jan-2019 07:50
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Just over 3 days now, and ~48hrs since modem was rebooted to put it into bridge mode, and it looks DLM has done something, however its a relatively minor improvement and only on the DS so far.   The US remains the same.  Ping times to the gateway remain unchanged at 31ms.  Based on the earlier responses, it seems unlikely the US will improve, or if it does, it might not get back to the 1Mb/s I got with ADSL.

 

I feel like I should give it a few more days, to be sure.

 

ATU-R Information
Type: VDSL2
Hardware: Annex A
Firmware: 05-07-09-0F-01-07
Power Mngt Mode: DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Line State: SHOWTIME
Running Mode: 8B
Vendor ID: fe004452 41590000
ATU-C Information
Vendor ID: b500494b 4e530101 [IKNS]
Line Statistics

Downstream Upstream
Actual Rate 24317 Kbps 361 Kbps
Attainable Rate 22582 Kbps 360 Kbps
Path Mode Interleave Interleave
Interleave Depth 103 67
Actual PSD -5.-5 dB 14. 5 dB
Near End Far End
Trellis ON ON
Bitswap OFF ON
SNR Margin 4 dB 9 dB
Attenuation 31 dB 38 dB
CRC 96 28
FECS 29992606 s 14 s
ES 75 s 131 s
SES 0 s 107 s
LOSS 0 s 107 s
UAS 26 s 0 s
HEC Errors 0 0
RS Corrections 0 0
LOS Failure 2 0
LOF Failure 0 0
LPR Failure 0 0
NCD Failure 0 0
LCD Failure 0 0
NFEC 48 255
RFEC 2 16
LYSMB 104 6520

 

FWIW here's the tone diagram

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2167277 25-Jan-2019 07:54
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give it the whole 10 days


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  Reply # 2167329 25-Jan-2019 09:41
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that bin allocation on US0 looks like a product of the lower power and amount of crosstalk.

 

 

 

Your allocation is otherwise incredibly clean, your cutting off just a little short of US1





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  Reply # 2167337 25-Jan-2019 09:59
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I am/was basically in the same boat you are, very similar stats and everything too. Ended up changing back to ADSL. 

 

 

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=214965

 

 

 

Have a look there. 




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  Reply # 2167649 25-Jan-2019 20:56
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Thanks, yes very similar situation and similar stats.

 

I contacted Flip to find out if they're ok for me to wait for DLM to do its thing and then decide whether to go back to ADSL, but haven't heard back, guessing it'll be over the weekend sometime.  In the meantime I'll see if DLM gets any more out of the VDSL setup.




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  Reply # 2173628 5-Feb-2019 19:38
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Hi, an update on this thread, I gave the DLM a chance over 10 days, and the DS improved to about 24Mb/s, while the US only improved to about 0.35Mb/s, and ping times stayed at 30-31ms.

 

Here's the final stats on the VDSL line on Monday evening (so 14 days after the ADSL->VDSL upgrade, and the modem was left connected for 13 days):

 

---------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A/B/C) -----------
Running Mode : 8B State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 24287000 bps US Actual Rate : 394000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 24071000 bps US Attainable Rate : 392000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 103 US Interleave Depth : 64
NE Current Attenuation : 30 dB Cur SNR Margin : 5 dB
DS actual PSD : -5.-6 dB US actual PSD : 14. 5 dB
NE CRC Count : 1560 FE CRC Count : 30
NE ES Count : 652 FE ES Count : 133
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 3
ITU Version[0] : fe004452 ITU Version[1] : 41590000
VDSL Firmware Version : 05-07-09-0F-01-07 [with Vectoring support]
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 37 dB Far SNR Margin : 5 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b500494b CO ITU Version[1] : 4e530101
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IKNS >

 

 

 

I requested a downgrade from flip over the weekend, which they actioned pretty quickly, and it went through last night.

 

Today I'm back to ADSL with 12Mb/s DS, 0.9MB/s US on SpeedTest and ping times to the ISP gateway have improved to 25ms.  Overall the browsing experience has improved compared to the VDSL connection.

 

The old ADSL line was around 16Mb/s DS, 0.9Mb/s US on SpeedTest, and had been rock solid at those rates for a year, and ping times to the ISP gateway were 19-20ms, so things aren't quite back to that level.

 

I noticed that the old ADSL line had IFTN for the DSLAM chipset, whereas the VDSL line and new ADSL connection both show IKNS, so I'm only guessing the chipset on the old line card was able to sync my DS a bit quicker.

 

Flip tell me that DLM doesn't apply to ADSL lines, and to give them a call if I think there is a problem.  From what I've read elsewhere, I thought Chorus does do DLM on ADSL lines as well.  Is that correct?

 

Here's the ADSL stats this evening:

 

adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : ADSL2+ Annex A State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 14312000 bps US Actual Rate : 1112000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 14340000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1176000 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Fast
DS Interleave Depth : 128 US Interleave Depth : 1
NE Current Attenuation : 28 dB Cur SNR Margin : 12 dB
DS actual PSD : 18. 9 dB US actual PSD : 18. 7 dB
NE Rcvd Cells : 1259070 NE Xmitted Cells : 134667
NE CRC Count : 1 FE CRC Count : 36
NE ES Count : 1 FE ES Count : 167
Xdsl Reset Times : 0 Xdsl Link Times : 1
ITU Version[0] : fe004452 ITU Version[1] : 41590000
ADSL Firmware Version : 05-07-02-08-00-01
Power Management Mode : DSL_G997_PMS_L0
Test Mode : DISABLE
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 12 dB Far SNR Margin : 12 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : b500494b CO ITU Version[1] : 4e530101
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < IKNS >

 

So it was borderline between ADSL vs VDSL in this case, but I'm happier back on ADSL.  It would be great if DLM works with ADSL and I get back to the old sync speeds and ping times, but I'm happy enough for now  while I wait for Fibre in my street, due late 2019.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dunc

 

 


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  Reply # 2173643 5-Feb-2019 19:50
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Dlm does apply.

If you have just migrated back you are likely on 12db.

Give it time to sync down.


Your change of linecards is totally normal. The old card would have been adsl2+only. You moved to a vdsl capable card as part of the upgrade. Downgrade is only a remote change.

If chorus need the vdsl port they may look at rearranging you off. But unlikely.




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  Reply # 2173661 5-Feb-2019 19:52
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Oh. And you can request interleaving off for adsl. Will drop latency.

In terms of user experience often it's better to have a tiny bit of interleaving in there though.

Tcp tends to not be a fan of the packet loss and udp can be a little lossy in games...




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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.




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  Reply # 2173671 5-Feb-2019 19:59
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Thanks for confirming my linecard theory and also that DLM works on ADSL, that is good to hear.   I will leave interleaving on and see how DLM goes over the next 2 weeks.

 

 


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