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  # 2352195 12-Nov-2019 13:05
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coffeebaron: Maybe we could give away a lifetime Geekzone subscription to the first Geekzoner who gets 10Gbps install in their home. And of course a 10Gbps Geekzone badge :)

 

There are several, but they won't be allowed to tell anyone about it or claim the badge :-)

 

 

 

N.

 

 





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  # 2352254 12-Nov-2019 13:48
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MichaelNZ:

 

hio77: No kidding... Go price up a mikrotik that will do 10g over pppoe..

 

These are the only suitable models based on the requirements of 2x SFP+ and >= 10Gbps routing performance.

 

https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1036-8G-2Splus

 

US$1,095

 

https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1036-8G-2SplusEM

 

US$1,295

 

https://mikrotik.com/product/CCR1072-1G-8Splus

 

US$3,050

 

I don't see 10G being a residential thing because the capital investment is not justified for the small number of (GPON) users who will buy it. Commercial / Organisational 10G users can already get 10G services through BS4 / metro ethernet type services.

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

 

 

you missed the key part of my statement.

 

 

 

"Over PPPoE"

 

 





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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2352281 12-Nov-2019 14:27
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Talkiet:

 

Wrong. It's not bandwidth typically, it's latency / BDP and TCP CC algorithms and other client (or server) parameters, as well as actual clever network configuration in the access networks. But it's not bandwidth, unless you're with a tiny RSP that's unable to justify handovers of a reasonable size everywhere.

 

 

It's not the cost of the handovers - it's the cost of international bandwidth. Having residential clients who expect to download stuff from the USA at multiple Gbps because they "are paying for it" doesn't stack up commercially. Of course, if they want to pay for committed bandwidth that's another matter, but even a 100M CIR, let alone 1G or 10G is way beyond what a residential client would be willing to pay.

 

That's the big joke about so-called "flat rate 1G" connections is the ISP is still only provisioning the same amount of international bandwidth per connection as they would for a lot slower plans, and the leverage just goes up with the connection speed.





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  # 2352291 12-Nov-2019 14:30
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MichaelNZ:

 

Talkiet:

 

Wrong. It's not bandwidth typically, it's latency / BDP and TCP CC algorithms and other client (or server) parameters, as well as actual clever network configuration in the access networks. But it's not bandwidth, unless you're with a tiny RSP that's unable to justify handovers of a reasonable size everywhere.

 

 

It's not the cost of the handovers - it's the cost of international bandwidth. Having residential clients who expect to download stuff from the USA at multiple Gbps because they "are paying for it" doesn't stack up commercially. Of course, if they want to pay for committed bandwdith that's another matter, but even a 100Mbps, let alone 1G or 10G is way beyond what a residential client would be willing to pay.

 

 

Once you get past the cost of bandwidth, the points neil makes come far more  relevant (and even at the smaller size, correct tuning can help a ton for the user experience)





#include <std_disclaimer>

 

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  # 2352293 12-Nov-2019 14:37
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MichaelNZ:

 

Talkiet:

 

Wrong. It's not bandwidth typically, it's latency / BDP and TCP CC algorithms and other client (or server) parameters, as well as actual clever network configuration in the access networks. But it's not bandwidth, unless you're with a tiny RSP that's unable to justify handovers of a reasonable size everywhere.

 

 

It's not the cost of the handovers - it's the cost of international bandwidth. Having residential clients who expect to download stuff from the USA at multiple Gbps because they "are paying for it" doesn't stack up commercially. Of course, if they want to pay for committed bandwidth that's another matter, but even a 100M CIR, let alone 1G or 10G is way beyond what a residential client would be willing to pay.

 

That's the big joke about so-called "flat rate 1G" connections is the ISP is still only provisioning the same amount of international bandwidth per connection as they would for a lot slower plans, and the leverage just goes up with the connection speed.

 

 

That's a tragically flawed set of statements. Aggregate bandwidth use scales with user demand, not access speed. International bandwidth is scaled based on aggregate customer demand, not anything to do with access speeds.

 

To do it any other way than on demand (+projections) would be insane.

 

Cheers - N





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  # 2352297 12-Nov-2019 14:46
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Talkiet:

 

That's a tragically flawed set of statements. Aggregate bandwidth use scales with user demand, not access speed. International bandwidth is scaled based on aggregate customer demand, not anything to do with access speeds.

 

To do it any other way than on demand (+projections) would be insane.

 

 

Why do you feel the need to preface every post with comments belittling people who you are quoting?

 

It is well known in the ISP industry users with the fastest connections are also the biggest data users. Some use multiple Tb's per month. If that's international data then the low price ISP's are running at a loss to service them.





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  # 2352302 12-Nov-2019 14:52
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MichaelNZ:

 

Talkiet:

 

That's a tragically flawed set of statements. Aggregate bandwidth use scales with user demand, not access speed. International bandwidth is scaled based on aggregate customer demand, not anything to do with access speeds.

 

To do it any other way than on demand (+projections) would be insane.

 

 

Why do you feel the need to preface every post with comments belittling people who you are quoting?

 

It is well known in the ISP industry users with the fastest connections are also the biggest data users. Some use multiple Tb's per month. If that's international data then the low price ISP's are running at a loss to service them.

 

 

I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way. I have good visibility into a very large number of users and their aggregate traffic behaviour and I am 100% comfortable with the accuracy of the statements I have made. We'll have to let the readers determine who they think has more experience and data in this area because I don't think I am going to be able to change your mind.

 

Cheers  N





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  # 2352311 12-Nov-2019 15:08
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Talkiet:

 

I have good visibility into a very large number of users and their aggregate traffic behaviour and I am 100% comfortable with the accuracy of the statements I have made.

 

 

The numbers will look different (and favourable) for any company who is so dominant they both own an international cable and are paid by other ISP's for peering.





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  # 2352324 12-Nov-2019 15:23
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I'm really sorry but I don't think I could convince you without showing information I am not allowed to share... If you're only used to working on small networks I can understand how the bandwidth available to 'gig' customers might seem scary but it's just not once there's any sort of real scale involved.

 

I'm sure you and your friends all hammer the heck out of the connections 24*7 but that's not what happens across a real world population of users.

 

You of course are entitled to any opinion you like, but sharing clearly wrong information in such an authoritative manner shouldn't go unchallenged in this technical forum.

 

Cheers - N





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  # 2352329 12-Nov-2019 15:30
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Talkiet:

 

I'm really sorry but I don't think I could convince you without showing information I am not allowed to share... If you're only used to working on small networks I can understand how the bandwidth available to 'gig' customers might seem scary but it's just not once there's any sort of real scale involved.

 

I'm sure you and your friends all hammer the heck out of the connections 24*7 but that's not what happens across a real world population of users.

 

 

Actually, I don't hammer it. I know because I am graphing my usage and of some of my clients.

 

I agree with you about the usage over the general population but my perspective should be read in the context I am claiming 10G connections will only be of interest to high users and the average user wouldn't care.





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  # 2352333 12-Nov-2019 15:37
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The same remarks were made when fibre was first introduced. "oh its too much" "nobody needs that speed" "pointless upgrade" etc now look where we are. 10gbit will be mandatory in the next 5-10 years. Just watch. As all the streaming services upgrade to 8k and video games continue to get bigger. 





http://www.speedtest.net/result/7315955530.png


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  # 2352334 12-Nov-2019 15:38
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MichaelNZ:

 

Talkiet:

 

I'm really sorry but I don't think I could convince you without showing information I am not allowed to share... If you're only used to working on small networks I can understand how the bandwidth available to 'gig' customers might seem scary but it's just not once there's any sort of real scale involved.

 

I'm sure you and your friends all hammer the heck out of the connections 24*7 but that's not what happens across a real world population of users.

 

 

Actually, I don't hammer it. I know because I am graphing my usage and of some of my clients.

 

I agree with you about the usage over the general population but my perspective should be read in the context I am claiming 10G connections will only be of interest to high users and the average user wouldn't care.

 

 

And on that point we're in 100% agreement, except that I would claim even high end users will only want it for show-off value... There's figuratively no reason to have 10G on a residential connection today *

 

Cheers - N

 

* - Yes I could say that I want to stream five simultaneous PROres 4k/60 uncompressed streams from home, but at that point I'd just be constructing an arbitrary argument to support an emotional want :-)

 

 





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  # 2352335 12-Nov-2019 15:39
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Zepanda66:

 

The same remarks were made when fibre was first introduced. "oh its too much" "nobody needs that speed" "pointless upgrade" etc now look where we are. 10gbit will be mandatory in the next 5-10 years. Just watch. As all the streaming services upgrade to 8k and video games continue to get bigger. 

 

 

International bandwidth was double digit dollars per Mbps at the time. It's now single digits. So if the price comes down that would certainly help.

 

By way of comparison, bandwidth is cents per Mbps in the USA.

 

When I started my career in the industry in the 1990's it was 5-figure dollars per Mbps.

 

(Prices are per month).

 

A contact at a major-T1 carrier attributed the expensive price here in NZ to the cost of getting it across the cable. Still, in the greater scheme of things our prices are globally at the low end. I participate in online forums where users are paying $50, $100 and more per Mbps per month today.





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