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jdgamez

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  #169949 8-Oct-2008 18:30
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ralph is there an eta onthis servicei am really interrested in this

 
 
 

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RalphFromSnap
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  #170438 10-Oct-2008 16:01
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jdgamez: ralph is there an eta onthis servicei am really interrested in this


Still in the early development stage. While the connection(s) physically work there are a couple of bugs that still need to be ironed out. After the technical stages, we still have design/monitoring steps and after that we will need to hammer out pricing etc.




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insane
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  #170529 10-Oct-2008 23:03
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It sure sounds like an interesting idea, however as far as redundancy goes I see a flaw. You would really need to have each connection comming from a different excahnge / cabinet / DSLAM in the exchange.

If your business's connection really was mission critical and you needed the guaranteed upload you'd get a fibre connection with a CIR and have a DSL connection for backup.

But not to rain on snaps parade but I think the idea is only good fo SOHO's and the nerdiest of home users.



jdgamez

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  #170530 10-Oct-2008 23:11
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yes but i dont think im going to be able to get fibre for a few years yet and i love the ideo of saying i have 2 or more connections and i like speed even more.

PenultimateHop
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  #170543 11-Oct-2008 02:54
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cyril7: hi, Telecom most definetely does not support it on there DSLAMs and so any UBS using that, and I have not heard of either Orcon or Voda/Ihug doing it. If you are within 1km of Parnell exchange maybe try the voda VDSL2 trial, although i think its closed for new trialist at this time, saw figures of 50/16 on the voda forum.

The DSLAMs don't need to support any form of aggregation (e.g. G.998.3 or IMA or other forms of bonding) to make this work. There are several options:

You could use MLPPP, although I don't think Telecom's BRAS (operating as LAC) will allow it to pass through.  The other option is to just use per-packet/per-destination load balancing over two separate PPP sessions, which will work fine.

It's important to remember that per-packet will let you achieve the full "bonded" line rate on a single flow, however you will suffer out-of-order packet issues which has a tendancy to kill voice applications (or other high-packet-rate UDP type apps, such as gaming).  The reason for this is unless you can guarantee the end-to-end latency on both circuits is identical, the packets will arrive at the remote node out of order.  This is very likely in DSL networks where there is no easy way to guarantee that both DSL circuits are on the same DSLAM, much less the same backhaul circuit or BRAS/LAC.  All of these will contribute to latency and jitter variations and absolutely destroy the performance per-packet load balancing.  Note that serialisation delay if the two different DSL circuits have different sync speeds will also impact the performance of per-packet.

Per-destination load balancing will not let a single flow use more than the available bandwidth on a single link, and will avoid the problems that per-packet suffers from where circuit latency is unequal.  The downside is of course that a single flow will never fill up both links, but you do get a pretty good effective throughput boost overall.  Note that many carrier grade routers do not support per-packet forwarding any longer for this reason; per-destination/per-flow hashing is much more suitable for their networks.

MLPPP will avoid the per-packet load balancing issues and allow you to use the full bandwidth of the bundle, as it has very good mechanisms for coping with slightly inequal links and ensuring packet ordering is corrected at each end of the bundle.  It's not supported by the TNZ UBS specification, and I don't think the LAC will let it pass through (although to be honest I've never tried it - perhaps an ISP with interest could try it out).

Failing all of the above options, you could very easily create two tunnels to a tunnel server over separate DSL connections, and then load balance in/out of the tunnel based on whatever criteria you want (MLPPP, per-packet, per-destination, day of the week, evil bit presence, whatever you want).

Any LLU ISP could provide these functions off their own infrastructure; and EUBA will also offer some capabilities for ISPs to do MLPPPoE or IPoE ECMP.

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  #170558 11-Oct-2008 08:54
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Thanks for the comments Pen, but on a slightly different note, I take it the ISAMs and the new network that they hangon, do they translate the ATM PVC to a vlan at the ISAM itself so all aggregation is simply 802 (and MPLS once further on up) to the BRAS.

And if and when Telecom should do VDSL2, which I understand has no ATM wrapper concept but pure (or near pure) ethernet, how will AAA be acheived, will it be via PPPoE, or DHCP with some DSLAM port association of the subscribers credentials.

Just curious as to how its achieved.

Cyril

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  #170668 12-Oct-2008 01:15
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cyril7: Thanks for the comments Pen, but on a slightly different note, I take it the ISAMs and the new network that they hangon, do they translate the ATM PVC to a vlan at the ISAM itself so all aggregation is simply 802 (and MPLS once further on up) to the BRAS.

And if and when Telecom should do VDSL2, which I understand has no ATM wrapper concept but pure (or near pure) ethernet, how will AAA be acheived, will it be via PPPoE, or DHCP with some DSLAM port association of the subscribers credentials.

With apologies to the OP for going OT...

You are correct about the ISAM - it performs a circuit cross-connect from the DSL port to a VLAN on the network port, which is then encapsulated within another VLAN (802.1ad).  In the case of legacy networking, the ISAM also performs PPPoA to PPPoE conversion before it heads to the BRAS/LAC.

EUBA (according to the spec) hands over the service provider traffic in a similar manner: S-VLAN per ISAM per Access Seeker, and C-VLAN per subscriber.  Within that, the ISP can identify the customer based on the S&C-VLAN combination.  Alternatively, the DSLAM can insert line identifier information in DHCP Option-82 or PPPoE PADI.  In the case of EUBA, Telecom is no longer involved in the authentication path as they have been in the past (UBS/BUBA, FastIP/Direct), since it is effectively a nailed up circuit.

All of this applies to VDSL as well as ADSL.



raytaylor
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  #170748 12-Oct-2008 18:16
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I can remember doing this with a couple of 56k modems 6 years ago.

The simplest way to do it with adsl is the load balancing.
You use a load balancing router plugged into 2 modems. The router can be programmed with specific rules so individual connections or computers travel through specific links etc.

I have set up a simple system for a few of our clients at work with one of these boxes.
As said above, when a connection is made, such as a request for a website, the router will route it through the least congested uplink. This means that no download can exceed the speed of one of the uplinks.

To get around this, you use a download manager like FDM when downloading files using http or ftp.
Bit torrent always downloads files in small parts so it will naturally work well with a load balancing router.

I am thinking of doing this at home because Napier is going to be waiting another year before we get ADSL2+




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Athlonite
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  #170804 13-Oct-2008 01:37
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Ha snap Ray i can remember doing it to with a couple of USR Shotgun modems was good at the time if you could afford the cost of the two phone lines it took sorry if im off topic just felt all nostalgic for a second Cool 

muppet
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  #170807 13-Oct-2008 04:35
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@PenultimateHop: Clever nick! No prizes for guessing what area of tech you work in. Thanks for the detailed info as well.

cyril7
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  #170808 13-Oct-2008 06:51
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Thanks Pen, was usefull.

Cyril

CADMAX
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  #707725 28-Oct-2012 08:24
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Regarding the bonded ADSL:
Any one looking into doing this? any one had any luck?


Sorry about digging up a old post.




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sbiddle
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  #707735 28-Oct-2012 08:42
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As mentioned in the other thread you started, Chorus don't presently offer this as a commercial service. This means no ISP's offer this as a service.

What Snap described above isn't boned ADSL, but merely bonding connections together since they are all Ethernet based with EUBA. This is quite different (but delivers the same result). If an ISP terminated their DSL connections on Mikrotik gear for example there is a lot you can do with bonding.





benmurphy66
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  #707756 28-Oct-2012 09:19
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RalphFromSnap:
jdgamez: is there any isp in newzealand that support combinding multiple adsl lines into one big pipe to get faster speeds. 


Snap has been successful at setting this up at one of our Employees homes.

We have managed to bond 2x DSL (1x 13883/1027kbit and 1x 11734/836kbit – both ADSL 2+) links into a single link that operates at around 20500/1600kbit. The cool part of this setup is that it is also redundant; we can unplug one link and not have any impact on services using TCP, and only lose a handful of packets with UDP.

Unfortunately we still have this in the ‘development’ box and can’t offer this nor support you setting up your own. We are still developing this, and more so exploring the impact these services will have on our network. I can however, dispel the rumor that this will require LLU or work from Telecom Wholesale. We have done this completely on our own (and no, it's not eUBA - though we have sucessfully multilinked that also).

If you’re interested in this project I’ll take post up some photos and diagrams around how this setup works.


As somebody who works from home fulltime and sadly is outside the UFB & VDSL areas this is something I would very much use and pay for if it ever becomes a full blown service offering.


Edit - LOL only noticed this whole discussion is over 4 years old.

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