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Nate wants an iphone
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Reply # 172376 20-Oct-2008 21:09
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Where is your source?

Because population density does make a lot of difference... when considering technologies with limited range for instance. You wouldn't deploy DSL kits in the middle of nowhere if only one person was there - it wouldn't make economical sense.




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  Reply # 172379 20-Oct-2008 21:13
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Screeb:
cokemaster: Again, look at Japan... how many people live in 10 square kilometers? Compare that to NZ...

The reality is that while underinvestment may have played some part, its not the end all when it comes to this topic. Look at Austrialia, look at the US... many places only have the option of DSL, some get DSL2+, some are more luckier.

From memory the new cabinets that are being rolled out are fiber fed... isn't that FTTN?


As I said in my first post, population density has been shown to have little impact on broadband (why? I don't know, but there you go).

There you go, you dont even know what your talking about.


Screeb:

Yes, the new cabinets are FTTC, but it's (far) too little (far) too late.


Fixed.

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  Reply # 172383 20-Oct-2008 21:17
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Screeb:

... more population also = more people to serve. More people does not mean more money to invest in infrastructure per person, which is the relevant part. So now you might say, well, they have a higher population density - true - but statistics about broadband penetration/cost/speed show that density matters squat all (sorry, don't have the figures or charts on hand).
(Hint: the reason Japan's internet is where it is today is due to ... drum roll please! ... Huge government investment!)

Funnily enough, though, having more people to serve in a smaller area (ie, Tokyo) also means that there is less cost serving the outer extremities of that area when compared with somewhere like NZ, and that there will be a larger ROI per square kilometre as there are more people to pay for the service, too. So...having more people does actually drive down the cost. 
Also, to reiterate what others have been saying in a different way, most of Japan's content comes from...believe it or not, Japan!




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  Reply # 172384 20-Oct-2008 21:17
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Taking into account our population density, total population, national wealth and georgraphical location, our internet is not actually that bad.

Japan and Europe have high internet speeds because they have most of that: They are rich, relatively huge population density and not much space to cover with the internet infrastructure.


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  Reply # 172390 20-Oct-2008 21:38
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cokemaster: Where is your source?

Because population density does make a lot of difference... when considering technologies with limited range for instance. You wouldn't deploy DSL kits in the middle of nowhere if only one person was there - it wouldn't make economical sense.


As I said before (are you even reading my posts?), I don't have any sources on hand, but I will try to find it.


wh0beme
There you go, you dont even know what your talking about.

Fixed.


Thanks for contributing...


munchkin:
Funnily enough, though, having more people to serve in a smaller area (ie, Tokyo) also means that there is less cost serving the outer extremities of that area when compared with somewhere like NZ, and that there will be a larger ROI per square kilometre as there are more people to pay for the service, too. So...having more people does actually drive down the cost. 


You're confusing population with population density when quoting me. Yes, you are correct in your point about more people in a smaller area (density), but I was talking about what the OP said, which was the total population of the countries. Of course population density makes it cheaper. (how much cheaper, and how this effects broadband efforts is another issue)

munchkin:
Also, to reiterate what others have been saying in a different way, most of Japan's content comes from...believe it or not, Japan!


Yes... I never disputed this fact, and what I have been saying has nothing to do with that. I'm talking about national infrastructure, which is a neccessity regardless of whether most of your content comes from within the country or outside it.



The fact of the matter is good broadband is down to proper investment, however, the return on that investment for decent broadband is not enough to get what Japan and Europe have for a private company to do. That is precisely why both of them achieved their superb broadband infrastructure through huge government funding, support, subsidies, etc, which is not what has happened in NZ.

Nate wants an iphone
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  Reply # 172393 20-Oct-2008 21:48
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You keep talking about 'facts'. Please reference them, else call them your opinion.




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  Reply # 172394 20-Oct-2008 21:50
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TelstraClear are going to be offering 200Mbps here in Whangarei by the end of the year apparently Tongue out
The NorthPower fibre is going to be going right past our house so we will have access to it.
THe pricing might be a big put off though.




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Reply # 172395 20-Oct-2008 21:51
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Alrighty, found some sources: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/21/60/39574903.xls

As you can see down the bottom there, they have put the correlation coefficient for population density: a whopping 0.23. Those of you who know your statistics will know that this means roughly "diddly squat" in English.

Here is a good summary of various factors (also from OECD): http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0611/

About half way down the page, it says "Broadband penetration appears to have a stronger correlation with GDP per capita (see Figure 5) than with population density. Broadband penetration had a correlation of 0.629 with GDP per capita and a correlation of 0.245 with population density (see Figure 6)."

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  Reply # 172397 20-Oct-2008 21:53
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cokemaster: You keep talking about 'facts'. Please reference them, else call them your opinion.


The only times I said "fact" was when quoting munchkin on the phrase "most of Japan's content comes from...believe it or not, Japan", which you evidently agree with... I hope I don't have to provide you with sources for that - and the other time was a figure of speech... ("the fact of the matter").

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  Reply # 172399 20-Oct-2008 21:59
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Apologies for the triple post, but:

CYaBro: TelstraClear are going to be offering 200Mbps here in Whangarei by the end of the year apparently Tongue out
The NorthPower fibre is going to be going right past our house so we will have access to it.
THe pricing might be a big put off though.


Yeah, they also promised 25Mbps for cable customers by the end of last year... still waiting here in Wellington, and for Christchurch, well...

THe pricing might be a big put off though.

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  Reply # 172411 20-Oct-2008 23:21
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.





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  Reply # 172412 20-Oct-2008 23:25
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If I had won the $30 mill on lotto the other night I would estimate in 12 months, most of Hastings in areas with overhead telephone lines would have at least a 50mb+ connection to national sources. The rest of hastings and napier would have to wait untill the power co was ready to go halves on the digging costs as the 30 mill would have to be stretched to get some customers running and some income coming in to carry on expanding.

Oh and it wouldnt be in areas untill telecom had cabnetised the area first. I know that sounds mean but it would be an 'open access' network excluding telecom retail - they have to wait 8 years like the good Ms Presley of Call Plus had to.
I like the idea of them spending all that money on cabnetisation and then suddenly most of their customers leave telecom for a ~$100 per month triple play service delivered by fibre.

Anyone remember how much telstra spend on cabling up wellington? I seem to remember approx 22mil




Ray Taylor
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For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here




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  Reply # 172415 20-Oct-2008 23:47
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1Gbps? Maybe soon..Let's wait after the election. In technology, Impossible make things possible. 

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  Reply # 172430 21-Oct-2008 07:53
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Screeb: Alrighty, found some sources: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/21/60/39574903.xls

As you can see down the bottom there, they have put the correlation coefficient for population density: a whopping 0.23. Those of you who know your statistics will know that this means roughly "diddly squat" in English.

Here is a good summary of various factors (also from OECD): http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0611/

About half way down the page, it says "Broadband penetration appears to have a stronger correlation with GDP per capita (see Figure 5) than with population density. Broadband penetration had a correlation of 0.629 with GDP per capita and a correlation of 0.245 with population density (see Figure 6)."

 

As you say, there are many factors that make a difference in the penetration - e.g. government investment in countries like Japan and Korea, which help keep the prices down.

But you must agree that all else being equal, a higher population density means a lower cost per home passed which allows lower prices which will lead to higher penetration. 

 

Thus, in NZ, noone will be able to afford high speed broadband because of the high cost of deployment. Not until our GDP per capita is high enough that the high cost seems low. Or we have significant public investment.





 

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  Reply # 172461 21-Oct-2008 09:51
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Screeb: Alrighty, found some sources: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/21/60/39574903.xls

As you can see down the bottom there, they have put the correlation coefficient for population density: a whopping 0.23. Those of you who know your statistics will know that this means roughly "diddly squat" in English.

Here is a good summary of various factors (also from OECD): http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0611/

About half way down the page, it says "Broadband penetration appears to have a stronger correlation with GDP per capita (see Figure 5) than with population density. Broadband penetration had a correlation of 0.629 with GDP per capita and a correlation of 0.245 with population density (see Figure 6)."



That list is comparing broadband penetration with population density – which is not what the OP is about.  He is asking about speed, not penetration.  (which is why Japan sits halfway down the list there despite having the 1Gb connection.)

It is also using national population density which seems pretty stupid to me when looking at infrastructure investment (although makes sense when looking at BB penetration).  Australia's population density in cities is relatively high, but the overall national density is one of the smallest because there is so much uninhabited land.

A better measure would be a list that compares just urban populaton density with urban speeds available.

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