VDSL micro-outages in the Glenfield area

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atomeara

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#2650482 9-Feb-2021 16:58

nztim:

atomeara:

The end-user must have a connection to the fibre service installed at no cost to the end-user irrespective of whether the connection is standard or nonstandard. This means that, if a fibre connection cannot be installed (for example, due to third-party property access issues), Chorus will not be able to withdraw the copper service. However, this requirement will not need to be met if the end-user does not reasonably cooperate with the installation process or if the end-user does not take reasonable steps available to them to resolve a third-party issue;

The biggest issue is..... Chorus (well old Telecom) connected multiple dwellings on one legal title and currently tax payer funding only covers one install per legal property (SAM ID) - Currently if the other dwellings want Fibre they have to pay for the in-fill (around 3K) - so for chorus to withdraw copper they will have to provide that in-fill at no cost to the customer

I have a customer in Porirua - 3 dwellings on 1 SAM ID we were the first to install fibre, the remaining 2 dwellings are stuck on copper unless they fork out the 3k each for the in-fill

So that leaves the question, there is no government money for the remaining 2 so are chorus going to dig into their pockets to provide the remaining 6k to install fibre at the other two dwellings?

I have the same issue with 3 buildings inside a Regional Park in Auckland but it only has 1 address.

I have raised this with Chorus before, they're aware of this but I am pretty sure they have there head in the sand about it and the size of the problem.

I can't see them getting around if someone digs there feet in.

They could have also addressed this issue at the start of the rollout by treating them like ROW/MDU but didn't, there will be a bit of work sorting this out.

They will start by picking the easy areas but I think they will want to shutdown most Chorus UFB 1 areas within 2-3 years.
Spark will most likely have all the PSTN gone by then, it will only be ADSL or VDSL in Chorus UFB 1 areas no phone lines.

The real world cost isn't 3k it will vary a lot by property.

In the Chorus submissions to ComCom they didn't want the rules as tight as they are and what they wanted would have got them out of this situation but the new rules don't sound like they will be able too.

But they are the ones who want to shutdown the copper network.

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neb

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#2656788 15-Feb-2021 15:15

atomeara:
Copper Withdrawal is coming, and it is coming soon to some areas.

How long before Chorus come to the realisation that shutting down well-buried, armoured copper lines laid out carefully over a period of decades and going with fibre stapled onto the fence by the cheapest contractor in the least time possible leads to a huge drop in reliability?

nztim

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#2656858 15-Feb-2021 16:18

atomeara:

I have the same issue with 3 buildings inside a Regional Park in Auckland but it only has 1 address.

I have raised this with Chorus before, they're aware of this but I am pretty sure they have there head in the sand about it and the size of the problem.

I can't see them getting around if someone digs there feet in.

They could have also addressed this issue at the start of the rollout by treating them like ROW/MDU but didn't, there will be a bit of work sorting this out.

They will start by picking the easy areas but I think they will want to shutdown most Chorus UFB 1 areas within 2-3 years.
Spark will most likely have all the PSTN gone by then, it will only be ADSL or VDSL in Chorus UFB 1 areas no phone lines.

The real world cost isn't 3k it will vary a lot by property.

In the Chorus submissions to ComCom they didn't want the rules as tight as they are and what they wanted would have got them out of this situation but the new rules don't sound like they will be able too.

But they are the ones who want to shutdown the copper network.

Plenty of Baseband IP & UCLL phone lines without the PSTN out there

It will take years and years of growling before copper can be shutdown and someone will eventually have to fit the bill for the "difficult" installations

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

atomeara

324 posts

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#2656872 15-Feb-2021 16:42

nztim:

atomeara:

I have the same issue with 3 buildings inside a Regional Park in Auckland but it only has 1 address.

I have raised this with Chorus before, they're aware of this but I am pretty sure they have there head in the sand about it and the size of the problem.

I can't see them getting around if someone digs there feet in.

They could have also addressed this issue at the start of the rollout by treating them like ROW/MDU but didn't, there will be a bit of work sorting this out.

They will start by picking the easy areas but I think they will want to shutdown most Chorus UFB 1 areas within 2-3 years.
Spark will most likely have all the PSTN gone by then, it will only be ADSL or VDSL in Chorus UFB 1 areas no phone lines.

The real world cost isn't 3k it will vary a lot by property.

In the Chorus submissions to ComCom they didn't want the rules as tight as they are and what they wanted would have got them out of this situation but the new rules don't sound like they will be able too.

But they are the ones who want to shutdown the copper network.

Plenty of Baseband IP & UCLL phone lines without the PSTN out there

It will take years and years of growling before copper can be shutdown and someone will eventually have to fit the bill for the "difficult" installations

UCLL is likely to be gone pretty soon, I am pretty sure it is no longer regulated and Chorus can withdrawal it, Chorus are sub 13,000 UCLL customers (down from 18,000 a year ago)

Baseband IP in rural will be around for a long time (there still deploying new copper broadband cabinets in rural areas) and maybe a while in other LFC areas but there is little baseband IP in Chorus UFB 1 and early Chorus UFB 2 areas, they announced some years ago they were not going to install any new baseband IP cards in these areas.

The Spark PSTN/POTS shutdown is coming fast, it is not regulated and will leave people without copper based voice calling in areas without baseband IP. Chorus still have to provide there broadband services.

VDSL is also not regulated so Chorus can withdrawal this leaving only ADSL2+ EUBA service if they really want to play hard ball.

I think the shutdown will happen faster than you think, and Chorus will have to foot that bill.

richms

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#2656881 15-Feb-2021 16:53

neb:
atomeara:

Copper Withdrawal is coming, and it is coming soon to some areas.

How long before Chorus come to the realisation that shutting down well-buried, armoured copper lines laid out carefully over a period of decades and going with fibre stapled onto the fence by the cheapest contractor in the least time possible leads to a huge drop in reliability?

When they look at the stats for the neglected since the 80s damaged lead and paper insulated copper needing truck rolls every time it rains, vs the new fiber that any damage on a fence can be blamed on someone else.

Reliability on fiber for me has been close to 100% - only issue was after install they came back to swap out a fiber for one with more fibes in it and had to stop because it was raining. My copper would crap its pants everytime it rained and it wasnt till it dried out that the tech bothered to show up and try the no fault found scam.

Richard rich.ms

nztim

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#2656883 15-Feb-2021 16:58

Fibre is the most superior service hands down but there are a range of factors preventing people to moving to it - These factors once sorted will accelerate the copper shutdown but its going to require some wallet opening by chorus

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

atomeara

324 posts

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#2656884 15-Feb-2021 17:00

neb:
atomeara:

Copper Withdrawal is coming, and it is coming soon to some areas.

How long before Chorus come to the realisation that shutting down well-buried, armoured copper lines laid out carefully over a period of decades and going with fibre stapled onto the fence by the cheapest contractor in the least time possible leads to a huge drop in reliability?

From an ISP point of view, copper services far far less reliable than fibre and they take a lot more time to troubleshoot.

Fibre works or it doesn't. For UFB if there is a red optical / LOS light on the ONT reboot it, if it is still red/LOS log a fault and a tech turns up to fix it.

Copper is a nightmare, random re-sycns and drop outs, poor speeds, water getting into the lines every time it rains.

You can VDSL about 1.5 -2 km with vectoring

ADSL maybe 5km on a good line with little noise and even then you might get 1-3Mb

You can get fibre running 80km over a single strand with so SFP+ for about $70 each

Copper has done a great job getting us to where we are today but it is old technology.

The in street fibre has been run properly, some of the installs are pretty cheap and nasty however I have seen just as many bad copper installs.

PolicyGuy

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#2656886 15-Feb-2021 17:13

nztim:

Fibre is the most superior service hands down but there are a range of factors preventing people to moving to it - These factors once sorted will accelerate the copper shutdown but its going to require some wallet opening by chorus

It may be that it's our (taxpayers') wallets that get opened.
I can see Crown Infrastructure Partners Limited (formerly CFH) being given more government money to make some of these problems go away, particularly in urban and urban fringe areas.

I see a threat to Chorus in Starlink (and Oneweb, when that happens) in quite a short term, way less than five years.
It could leave Chorus with a lot of rural copper lines, cabinets & other infrastructure as effectively stranded assets

atomeara

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#2658038 17-Feb-2021 09:05

PolicyGuy:

nztim:

Fibre is the most superior service hands down but there are a range of factors preventing people to moving to it - These factors once sorted will accelerate the copper shutdown but its going to require some wallet opening by chorus

It may be that it's our (taxpayers') wallets that get opened.
I can see Crown Infrastructure Partners Limited (formerly CFH) being given more government money to make some of these problems go away, particularly in urban and urban fringe areas.

I see a threat to Chorus in Starlink (and Oneweb, when that happens) in quite a short term, way less than five years.
It could leave Chorus with a lot of rural copper lines, cabinets & other infrastructure as effectively stranded assets

Rural space is interesting already with Chorus, WISPs and RCG/mobile providers all fighting in this ever shrinking space.

UFB will be 87% coverage but with all new subdivisions going in with UFB, that number will be more like 90% in a few years.

I would almost say that most people who are in rural locations and can't get half decent VDSL have already moved off Chorus.

Spark has stripped any areas they can pretty well now for broadband to there fixed wireless (talking 6 figures over the whole country)

There are a few pockets where Chorus will loose a bunch of due to no existing WISP and mobile coverage currently

That is also assuming Starlink is actually as good as the marketing hype leads on.

I personally see Starlink is a bigger risk to the fixed wireless providers mostly Spark and Vodafone, as I see most rural complaints about them, speeds and datacaps.
WISPs generally do a pretty good job and there pricing is cheaper than Starlink for unlimited.

Chorus already have an issue today of rural cabinets that are under utilised. We may see more changes to regulation in future as things change.

neb

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#2658242 17-Feb-2021 13:33

atomeara:
From an ISP point of view, copper services far far less reliable than fibre and they take a lot more time to troubleshoot.

What I meant was the long-term reliability of the physical links. Of the fibre installs in this street I'd say pretty much all of them are one line trimmer/shovel/lawnmower/DIY slip-up away from backhoe fade. Are we sitting before a looming leaky homes of physical connections?

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