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600 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 199360 5-Mar-2009 09:26
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Fraktul:
But most of these you can currently do with ADSL 2+ or are unsuitable for the type of application you are probably intending?

1) Granted this is not feasible over xDSL really without transcoding.
2) More than feasible over ADSL2+.
3) Granted this is not feasible over xDSL really without transcoding.
4) Most businesses with telehoused or hosted services do so for the higher SLAs which data centers provide, not solely for the additional network service options.
5) 720p MPEG4 content should be able to be streamed over the majority of ADSL2+ connections in NZ barring externalities from the last mile.
6) Care to clarify?



First off, transcoding's for chumps. :)  If it isn't done on demand and in real-time, it's wasting my time.

All of my uses boil down to one thing: making it possible to leave things at home and still get access to them.  It's all about not having to remember where you put something.  That assignment you've got at home?  You can pull it to where you are.  Those pictures of your trip you intended to show your inlaws, but forgot to pack?  Right there.  That movie you wanted to watch at your girlfriends?  Your eBook library is available anywhere you've got a network connection.

Currently people use "the cloud" to provide this functionality.  They use webmail, blogs, Flickr, MobileMe and device synching to all get around one simple problem - having to choose what to bring.

If you've got a fast enough internet connection, it no longer matters what you choose to bring.  The network makes all points outside of your house equivalent to being inside your house.  I no longer have to bring a laptop simply because it is the only thing big enough to hold my data, I can use a phone with a big pipe to move things around.






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  Reply # 199376 5-Mar-2009 10:51
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jpollock: I can already think of uses.
1) When I'm over at a friend's house, it would be great to have access to my DVD collection.  With Fibre and free local/national traffic, I could do this. (Could?  _Would_)
2) I used to stream my music from home to work.  That way, I didn't have to put my mp3s on my work machine (a big no-no).  The free national traffic made this viable.
3) I'd be able to do the same with my Cable TV, Sky, and Freeview feeds.


hmm. could be a slippery legal slope here :-)  Especially if you gave your 'friends' access while you werent there.  I guess you coiuld argue personal use, but the fact that you are now 'broadcasting' or 'making available online' could cause issues.

Fraktul:
1) Granted this is not feasible over xDSL really without transcoding.
3) Granted this is not feasible over xDSL really without transcoding.
5) 720p MPEG4 content should be able to be streamed over the majority of ADSL2+ connections in NZ barring externalities from the last mile.


xdsl is ample for the downstream component but likely falls way short on the upstream.  Given that some residential FTTH rollouts around the world appear to be asynchronous (got to differentiate them from business class somehow i guess) it may not even be feasible on FTTH.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 199383 5-Mar-2009 11:30
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Regs:
jpollock: I can already think of uses.
1) When I'm over at a friend's house, it would be great to have access to my DVD collection.  With Fibre and free local/national traffic, I could do this. (Could?  _Would_)
2) I used to stream my music from home to work.  That way, I didn't have to put my mp3s on my work machine (a big no-no).  The free national traffic made this viable.
3) I'd be able to do the same with my Cable TV, Sky, and Freeview feeds.


hmm. could be a slippery legal slope here :-)  Especially if you gave your 'friends' access while you werent there.  I guess you coiuld argue personal use, but the fact that you are now 'broadcasting' or 'making available online' could cause issues.


How to avoid copyright problems:

DVDs : google "DVD jukebox"
TV: google "Sling Media" and "Silicondust HD HomeRun"
IR: google "ir.emitter tcp/ip"

So, the DVD router would consist of a DVD jukebox, network attached IR generator and a Slingbox.  Completely done without making an infringing copy of the DVD. :)

I think it depends on if it's your use or not.  If this truly is illegal, then they will go after Sling Media and Silicondust first! :)

That doesn't really matter though.  The point is making all your content (and connections) available wherever you are.  It's up to the subscriber to make sure they aren't violating copyright.






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  Reply # 199385 5-Mar-2009 11:47
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jpollock:

How to avoid copyright problems:

DVDs : google "DVD jukebox"
TV: google "Sling Media" and "Silicondust HD HomeRun"
IR: google "ir.emitter tcp/ip"

So, the DVD router would consist of a DVD jukebox, network attached IR generator and a Slingbox.  Completely done without making an infringing copy of the DVD. :)

I think it depends on if it's your use or not.  If this truly is illegal, then they will go after Sling Media and Silicondust first! :)


I was referring more to the 'publishing' of the content beyond your private 'ip realm' (i.e. publishing to internet).


That doesn't really matter though.  The point is making all your content (and connections) available wherever you are.  It's up to the subscriber to make sure they aren't violating copyright.


Yes you are right of course.  And. If you are talking about streaming home made videos, photos and home made recordings anywhere in the world then it would be a perfectly legitimate use of all the technology and a potential driver for uptake of of the fibre services.  I would love to be able to give my  parents (who are based overseas) on-demand access to my collection of video clips of their grandchild without having to pick and choose what to publish via 3rd parties liike facebook or youtube.  I can't do that on DSL without transcoding and thats no easy task when all the source files are h.264 encoded!




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  Reply # 199388 5-Mar-2009 11:54
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Regs:
xdsl is ample for the downstream component but likely falls way short on the upstream.  Given that some residential FTTH rollouts around the world appear to be asynchronous (got to differentiate them from business class somehow i guess) it may not even be feasible on FTTH.


He is talking about streaming from his home connection so of course its going to be upstream limited :)

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  Reply # 199389 5-Mar-2009 11:56
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Even Verizon Fios offers upstreams of 20mbps, enough for a DVD.




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  Reply # 199413 5-Mar-2009 15:17
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There's no way a decent fibre plan is only going to have 1Mbps max up, which is the limit on Telecom's implementation of ADSL2+.



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  Reply # 199550 5-Mar-2009 23:58
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Screeb: There's no way a decent fibre plan is only going to have 1Mbps max up, which is the limit on Telecom's implementation of ADSL2+.


Thats hardly a useful statement... all you're saying that fibre plans are not 'decent' if they have low uploads.  Not that it can't/won't happen.  Just as useful as saying "there's no way a decent adsl2+ plan would ship with a 1GB data cap".

And in fact these sort of plans were linked in this thread here: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?ForumId=49&topicid=30951

plans offered were: 25Mbps/1Mbps, 50Mbps/2Mbps and 100Mbps/5Mbps




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  Reply # 199551 6-Mar-2009 00:10
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jpollock: Even Verizon Fios offers upstreams of 20mbps, enough for a DVD.


their cheaper plans are 10Mbps/2Mbps and 20Mbps/5Mpbs though...




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 199557 6-Mar-2009 02:41
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Regs:
Screeb: There's no way a decent fibre plan is only going to have 1Mbps max up, which is the limit on Telecom's implementation of ADSL2+.


Thats hardly a useful statement... all you're saying that fibre plans are not 'decent' if they have low uploads.  Not that it can't/won't happen.  Just as useful as saying "there's no way a decent adsl2+ plan would ship with a 1GB data cap".

And in fact these sort of plans were linked in this thread here: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?ForumId=49&topicid=30951

plans offered were: 25Mbps/1Mbps, 50Mbps/2Mbps and 100Mbps/5Mbps



I'm simply saying that given National's FTTH plan (open access), you will definitely see plans with > 1Mbps upload. Just because there may be plans with a lower upload speed doesn't nullify the point.

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  Reply # 199586 6-Mar-2009 10:40
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Regs:
jpollock: Even Verizon Fios offers upstreams of 20mbps, enough for a DVD.


their cheaper plans are 10Mbps/2Mbps and 20Mbps/5Mpbs though...


Oh, definitely.  The interesting bit is that the difference between 10/2 plan and the 20/20 plan is only US$20/month.

Still, I think we're getting slightly distracted.  Perhaps we need to rephrase it slightly, so that when you answer with "how much you would pay", you also state what your minimum transfer rate would be at that price.

at 5k, with free local/national traffic, I would expect:

100/100 local, but hope for 1000/1000
10/10 national, but hope for 100/100
international - same as today, 10/2.

Additionally, we have a local example we can use for fibre pricing - CitlyLink!  I remember back to when they used to accept private connections.  Back then they were around $100/mo for 100/100, with a setup fee of 5k for the hardware router.  My memory is probably wrong though.

A quick search of their pages doesn't turn up any prices.




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  Reply # 200260 9-Mar-2009 23:16
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I've seen the business case metrics for FTTH greenfields, it can work based on standard telco ARPU for tolls, BB and voice and you can even throw in the added exras.  Brownfields is difficult to justify but I know a few people with the technology platorm selected, the know how and the fibre trenching toys - so if anybody wants to find a street where everyone can trump up beer money $2k (install is a real cost with some margin) or time then I'm keen to call in some favors to make it happen.  one problem - last time I looked (it was 7 months ago) Chorus wasn't selling dark fibre(and Mark R had no desire to I asked him).  monthly lease costs could kill it.  lastly to make it work for s suburb it work for a street people would need to be forgiving as we'd have to volunteer support so no after hours.  work thing - while we live online, IM part of life and opensource is a religion the majority of SMEs, let alone consumers don't use fibre. anyway - seriously - who thinks that they could get the whole street involved? do you?

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  Reply # 200276 10-Mar-2009 07:59
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Isn't the question a bit more like:

"How much does it cost to string fiber to one house on a street?"
and then
"How much does it cost to string fiber to each additional house on the street?"

Then, when the price per house drops to an acceptable level, you know how many
houses you need to sign up. :)

There's no way that you could reasonably expect to sign up everyone on a street.  It's the same problem
as convincing everyone on the street to use the same telecom's provider.  It just isn't going to happen.




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  Reply # 200448 10-Mar-2009 18:22
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seriously - who thinks that they could get the whole street involved? do you?


The best I managed to do was in 2001/2 when ihug was doing the satelite broadband that used the 56k uplink. I managed to get about 9 people interested - we ran ethernet down the back fences in the centre of the block to each house and used wifi to link a couple of the houses off the block across the streets. I had everyone's upload rate limited to 24kbit so it didnt overkill the uplink but when 2 people started uploading or sending files, there was no more space so it killed the internet for the rest. When I moved away we had to disconnect it all but adsl was becoming cheaper. 




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  Reply # 200489 10-Mar-2009 22:07
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sure, you can string a fibre core, one house at a time, do away with the practicalities of network documentation and just get on with it.  trench it, string it from the poles whatever - but you need to scale to justify the backhaul circuit size.  either that or you find a friendly carrier who has actually invested in LLU, but why would they help when you've just taken their potential copper based customers? i fully support the requirement for FFTH. come up with way to make it work - hell beers bought trench digging services in palmerston so we'll get there eventually, we need to and here is why.  I read this comment on techcrunch last night from Eric Schmidt (Google CEO) about Moore's Law...
That means in that five years, it will be 10 times cheaper or faster. In 10 years, by the way, that’s 100 times cheaper or faster. And in 15 years, it’s a thousand times cheaper and faster. So unless something changes in 15 years, I have a grandson, he’ll be 18 in 15 years. He will have all of the world’s information, every video, every movie and so forth on a single hard drive. If he started watching it, he cannot finish watching it in 85 years. He’ll always be frustrated.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/07/eric-schmidt-tells-charlie-rose-google-is-unlikely-to-buy-twitter-and-wants-to-turn-phones-into-tvs/

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