Rural township UFB

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Chorus

#3319564 12-Dec-2024 14:22

MichaelNZ:

Can you please pass on my feedback.

Certainly can do!

quickymart:

Happy to be corrected from someone at Chorus if any of the above is wrong 🙂

The Chorus CEO Mark Aue has publicly stated his desire to transition Chorus to a Fibre only business by 2030, yes. The copper network is old technology, it's becoming harder and harder to maintain and frankly there are now better options available to everyone except those on the very best VDSL. However there are still lots of legal and commercial agreements in place which will need to be worked through before that becomes a reality.

So is copper going away? At some point that's very likely. Exactly when is up for debate and I personally think its likely to be around in some places for a while yet.

^Richard

MichaelNZ

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#3319568 12-Dec-2024 14:35

quickymart:

See the link I posted above - all copper services are set to be retired by 2030. You are welcome to oppose it however I daresay you would need a pretty solid reason to do so. "I'm waiting for UFB" probably isn't going to work as it may never arrive where you are.

Thanks for the link. I have seen that before but couldn't find it again. So I will screenshot it this time and go back to the Commerce Commission and confirm the situation.

In regards to your other comments, I hear your opinion and I respectfully differ. I suggest you have a close look at the coverage map at the range of places which have been rolled out and announced. There are plenty of more marginal places then where we live.

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Apsattv

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#3319673 12-Dec-2024 17:46

$15k ? about 10 years worth of Starlink? ok so the speeds not the same but, who knows in 5 years time.

I would just wait a couple of years at least

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#3319678 12-Dec-2024 18:01

MichaelNZ:

Don't underestimate the ability of country people to kick up a fuss about this sort of stuff. I have seen outrage expressed over the impending loss of analogue phone lines and internet access is a lot further up the totem pole.

I don't doubt what you're saying - I grew up rurally myself, so I can relate - but as Richard has said the copper network is getting difficult to maintain, and it certainly won't be running in "perpetuity" when there are other newer options available.

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#3319680 12-Dec-2024 18:16

quickymart:

I don't doubt what you're saying - I grew up rurally myself, so I can relate - but as Richard has said the copper network is getting difficult to maintain, and it certainly won't be running in "perpetuity" when there are other newer options available.

Sure it is and they can disconnect it when they have rolled out the "newer option".

Its not like we are going to roll over and trade our 100Mbps VDSL for 25Mbps wireless and a data cap. Chorus is openly knocking wireless in their marketing.

It may surprise some to learn there are parts of the country where whole townships are still on DSL. Chorus is upgrading some of them right now.

At this time the only areas where the copper has been turned off have UFB.

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quickymart

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#3319694 12-Dec-2024 18:53

MichaelNZ:

Sure it is and they can disconnect it when they have rolled out the "newer option".

For sure, and while I hope you do have the option to switch to fibre one day, there definitely won't be 100% nationwide fibre coverage ever, unless some serious money is stumped up from somewhere.

In a lot of rural areas (like where I grew up, with the nearest neighbour being 2kms away), once copper is switched off the "newer option" will be wireless or satellite.

In any case, you may want to look at a community install option. Would your neighbours be interested? I've never been to Norsewood but it seems to have a few houses in the township. If you all pooled together it probably wouldn't be as much (per person) as opposed to if you did the whole thing yourself.

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#3319698 12-Dec-2024 19:05

quickymart:

In a lot of rural areas (like where I grew up, with the nearest neighbour being 2kms away), once copper is switched off the "newer option" will be wireless or satellite.

In any case, you may want to look at a community install option. Would your neighbours be interested? I've never been to Norsewood but it seems to have a few houses in the township. If you all pooled together it probably wouldn't be as much (per person) as opposed to if you did the whole thing yourself.

We are in the township and surrounded by neighbours. I haven't counted but I think there would be 50 connections within their likely initial roll out.

I have never heard of this "community install" thing actually happening and I suspect its a red herring. Maybe some wealthy beach front holiday home spot may do it, but then a bunch of those have been rolled out normally.

What will happen here is people will oppose it on en masse if Chorus tries to disconnect the DSL network because that's how many of them (incl myself) think. They are not IT people and want to deal with local ISP's.

Ditto for pretty much every other small farming area town in NZ.

Reread my post to Chorus. It covers the scenarios I think have the best chance.

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quickymart

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#3319703 12-Dec-2024 19:11

MichaelNZ:

Ditto for pretty much every other small farming area town in NZ.

Sorry but on that post I disagree - I know where I grew up most of the residents have already moved onto wireless as the DSL was so poor, but with every place YMMV; it sounds like where you are the existing DSL service may be better than current wireless solutions.

And there are places that do have community upgrades where the community contributes towards upgrading to fibre and fibre can be installed (and no, they're not necessarily wealthy beachfront properties). The link I posted earlier explains it a bit more.

MichaelNZ

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#3319734 12-Dec-2024 19:46

Norsewood is a heartland rural farming township where the only nightlife is the local pub or the small bore rifle club. Everyone knows everyone else but this does not mean its a good idea to get too involved if you know what I mean.

Its also an IT black hole. I know because I did local IT services for awhile and quickly worked out why I had no local competition.

So if UFB gets rolled out in the area a few (incl myself) will line up to be early adopters and everyone else will move because their ISP said they needed to.

All of the surrounding farms either have DSL or wireless if they are outside the coverage area. But I have never found anyone who could have DSL choose to have wireless. There is one address with Starlink in the township and that's the local Police so I assume it was what the government provided for them.

I have already tried to stir up interest in UFB and while people want it, its not something they will fund themselves at custom install prices. They are waiting for it to be provided for free. Maybe they would pay something but its not going to be $5-10k type money. Not even going there.

Its not a Geekzone demographic. Yeah, if most of my neighbours were GZ types it would be a different matter.

So in summary theory and speculation doesn't count for much. And I think Chorus know this too which is why they have already rolled out a bunch of areas like this.

Having said that I will ask in a local group and see what people's responses are.

That's all.

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Wheelbarrow01

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Chorus

#3319821 12-Dec-2024 23:44

MichaelNZ:

At this time the only areas where the copper has been turned off have UFB.

That's not quite correct - Chorus has already sent withdrawal notices to a number of rural customers who currently have a PSTN phone line provided to them via Customer Multi Access Radio (CMAR) or Country Set Radio. CMAR is a local access radio-based system designed primarily for use in remote low density rural situations. Country Sets operate in tandem with CMAR in some locations and extend to individual customers via radio. The first systems were installed over 50 years ago.

Chorus has been unable to source new parts for these systems for decades already, so when faults occur, we've typically resorted to scavenging decommissioned equipment and "MacGyvering" a fix where we can, but this is not sustainable. Couple this with the fact that our field technicians with radio experience are all now at or past retirement age, and we're now at a point that we simply cannot maintain these radio networks any longer.

In addition to this, we've had a couple of instances in the past year where some local electricity lines companies have decided that they no longer wish to provide mains power to some of our remote radio sites. Two I can think of off the top of my head are in Otago and the Marlborough Sounds. While these sites do have battery and solar back-up, they cannot operate for any appreciable length of time without mains power, and it's not feasible to helicopter generators and/or fuel to these remote sites (or to clear winter snow from the solar panels in the case of the Otago site) for the very small number of customers using them.

As a result, CMAR/Country Set is already under withdrawal nationwide and will be fully decommissioned by mid to late 2025. As far as I am aware, all affected customers will have received at least the first withdrawal notice by now. Out of the 2000 or so addresses nationwide that currently have one of these radio-based copper phone services, a very small number can already get fibre, which is great. A few hundred may be able to move to fixed wireless through Spark, OneNZ or 2Degrees etc, but for the bulk of them, their options are likely to be either a satellite or WISP solution with a VOIP service layered on top. Some customers with reasonable mobile coverage at their property may choose to forego a landline altogether - indeed some affected customers have already chosen this option.

We've also already spoken to some affected customers who've told us they already have satellite internet through Starlink or similar. For these customers, it's a simple case of porting their landline number to a VOIP provider to host it over their existing internet connection.

Chorus is working directly with the affected customers and their RSPs to help them find a solution that suits their needs. Given that CMAR/Country Set Radio has only ever offered a voice-only service, this withdrawal represents a great opportunity for many of these customers to upgrade to a technology solution that offers them broadband internet for the first time ever.

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

MichaelNZ

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#3319822 13-Dec-2024 00:00

Wheelbarrow01:

That's not quite correct - Chorus has already sent withdrawal notices to a number of rural customers who currently have a PSTN phone line provided to them via Customer Multi Access Radio (CMAR) or Country Set Radio.

Thanks for sharing that interesting edge case.

However, my statement is correct in the context of this conversation which is about internet. My enquiry with the Commerce Commission was about internet so I would infer their response was relevant to my query. I am following this up with them.

Of course if you good folks roll out UFB in our township it will become a moot point.

Inline with rollouts in other comparable areas I estimate the likely initial UFB footprint would be this and we are included.

Why it hasn't happened by now is a mystery.

Norsewood has a comparable size township and population density to a bunch of other places rolled out and planned.

We are along a major highway which is more then what can be said for many others.

We have a school, an ECE and businesses.

The Norsewood exchange is fibre fed and in a building so enough room and bandwdith.

Hopefully someone at Chorus can enlighten me.

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Wheelbarrow01

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#3319825 13-Dec-2024 01:48

MichaelNZ:

Thanks for sharing that interesting edge case.

However, my statement is correct in the context of this conversation which is about internet. My enquiry with the Commerce Commission was about internet so I would infer their response was relevant to my query. I am following this up with them.

Of course if you good folks roll out UFB in our township it will become a moot point.

Inline with rollouts in other comparable areas I estimate the likely initial UFB footprint would be this and we are included.

Why it hasn't happened by now is a mystery.

Norsewood has a comparable size township and population density to a bunch of other places rolled out and planned.

We are along a major highway which is more then what can be said for many others.

We have a school, an ECE and businesses.

The Norsewood exchange is fibre fed and in a building so enough room and bandwdith.

Hopefully someone at Chorus can enlighten me.

For the initial UFB rollouts (collectively known as UFB1 and UFB2), the crown loaned Chorus a bunch of money to reticulate fibre in the streets of defined areas. Chorus went ahead and did that, and paid the crown loan back (or continues to pay it back - I don't know off the top of my head). There has been no further crown funding since UFB2 network build finished a few years ago.

Earlier this year, Chorus announced an expansion of our UFB footprint to roughly 10,000 additional households in urban fringe locations and areas just outside the existing UFB footprint. This network expansion has been self funded by Chorus and comes with some risk. We'll be relying on a sizeable uptake from those 10k houses to try and recoup the costs, and that is likely to take a number of years just to break even.

Will Chorus expand even further out? I don't have an answer for that. It's a costly business and the more we extend rurally, the less sense it makes from an economic standpoint, and ultimately we have shareholders to answer to. It's my opinion that we'd probably need further crown funding of some sort if we were to carry on further out into the smaller settlements, however those areas would be served almost equally as well by existing options such as satellite - for a literal fraction of the financial outlay.

I feel your pain, but unfortunately the line always has to get drawn somewhere...

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

DjShadow

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#3319847 13-Dec-2024 09:19

I’ve noticed Inspire Net have built their own fibre network in some areas of the Manawatu, would it be worth reaching out to them to see if they would consider your area if Chorus are not able to do so?

cddt

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#3319849 13-Dec-2024 09:31

MichaelNZ:

But I have never found anyone who could have DSL choose to have wireless.

Must be damned good DSL. Back between 2015-2019 the DSL in our central Auckland suburb was absolutely dire, wireless was a much better option.

My referral links: BigPipe | Mercury

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#3319851 13-Dec-2024 09:49

DjShadow:

I’ve noticed Inspire Net have built their own fibre network in some areas of the Manawatu, would it be worth reaching out to them to see if they would consider your area if Chorus are not able to do so?

I enquired about that awhile ago. It apparently ends here, at Norsewood. Its over $70k to connect.

I think yeah, nah.

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