Copper Services Investigation

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#3357300 25-Mar-2025 15:21

KiwiSurfer:

Out of the 88k still on ADSL/DSL, if they actually do need managed services they will just need to pay for it to be delivered some other way if it's not viable to fund UFB expansion to their location.

In reality UFB has been rolled out in all sorts of locations.

There is no issue of "viability" at this time. This issue only comes up when they have finished all the towns and townships through the country.

A few weeks ago I setup the connection for someone who had a free install in a farming area. Recently I have traveled along Anzac Road ("Waitakere South" on the Chorus map) which is being deployed this year. Its almost the same rural area it was over 30 years ago when I was younger and we lived in the area.

Ditto for Tinopai. It looks like a nice enough spot but hardly anything happens there. They are also getting done this year.

Around Christmas I was driving along the road between Ashurst and Colyton. Its all farms along there and UFB is apparently available.

I also traveled out Parakai (North of Auckland) way and they have strung the UFB along the poles to get out in rural roads. So why did they fail to do that for the people in Takapau? They didn't even do the whole township.

It reality its random who gets it and who doesn't.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Have a close look at the Broadband Map Zoom in and see the many little dots of pink many of which are in off the beaten track rural locations and holiday homes. Ask yourself how on earth they got it.

Are some locations being picked based on political and social connections?

So people in areas which have been missed out so far would be right ask when Chorus is going to get around to them.

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quickymart

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#3357308 25-Mar-2025 15:59

MichaelNZ:

KiwiSurfer:

Out of the 88k still on ADSL/DSL, if they actually do need managed services they will just need to pay for it to be delivered some other way if it's not viable to fund UFB expansion to their location.

In reality UFB has been rolled out in all sorts of locations.

There is no issue of "viability" at this time. This issue only comes up when they have finished all the towns and townships through the country.

A few weeks ago I setup the connection for someone who had a free install in a farming area. Recently I have traveled along Anzac Road ("Waitakere South" on the Chorus map) which is being deployed this year. Its almost the same rural area it was over 30 years ago when I was younger and we lived in the area.

Ditto for Tinopai. It looks like a nice enough spot but hardly anything happens there. They are also getting done this year.

Around Christmas I was driving along the road between Ashurst and Colyton. Its all farms along there and UFB is apparently available.

I also traveled out Parakai (North of Auckland) way and they have strung the UFB along the poles to get out in rural roads. So why did they fail to do that for the people in Takapau? They didn't even do the whole township.

It reality its random who gets it and who doesn't.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Have a close look at the Broadband Map Zoom in and see the many little dots of pink many of which are in off the beaten track rural locations and holiday homes. Ask yourself how on earth they got it.

Are some locations being picked based on political and social connections?

So people in areas which have been missed out so far would be right ask when Chorus is going to get around to them.

Are you going to beat this drum again? Sorry but really - this was covered in depth in your other thread, wasn't it?

There is no issue of "viability" at this time. Sorry but Chorus have already responded and said it is. Where is the funding going to come from for the even smaller towns?

Anyway, I'm looking at a coverage map and see:

Recently I have traveled along Anzac Road - do you mean Anzac Valley Road? It's quite near to an existing rollout area, so possibly (as mentioned in the other thread) so possibly that made the rollout to there easier

Tinopai - population 240

Around Christmas I was driving along the road between Ashurst and Colyton. Its all farms along there and UFB is apparently available. - not on the map I'm looking at. In Ashhurst, yes.

Parakai has over 1,000 people so that would make it worth the investment to get it out there.

Takapau appears to have the urban area covered.

Are some locations being picked based on political and social connections? - I highly doubt it (there would be an uproar if that was the case) - and I wonder if the "free install in the farming area" was someone who had paid to get it delivered to their property. Either that or they were part of a subdivision.

Your best bet is to make your submission and see what happens, I don't think repeatedly complaining on here that you were missed out is going to result in fibre being installed in Norsewood (if that's what you were aiming for).

MichaelNZ

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#3357309 25-Mar-2025 16:03

quickymart:

Are you going to beat this drum again? Sorry but really - this was covered in depth in your other thread, wasn't it?

This thread is obviously not for you.

Its to make people aware there is an opportunity to make a submission

You are not contributing anything on this topic.

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quickymart

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#3357313 25-Mar-2025 16:19

So that's me and Richard who aren't allowed to post in this thread, right? Are you only interested in hearing from people who agree with your viewpoints?

Like I said, I wish you luck with your submissions - good luck with that - but otherwise I guess I'm out of here then, like Richard.

nztim

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#3357396 26-Mar-2025 08:46

danfaulknor:

FWA/Satellite/WISP are all well and good, but we (ISPs) can't do managed services over those like we can over copper (and UFB). Things like WANs. VPN is fine but you end up with a smaller MTU which is at best annoying and at worst causes issues. Not to mention the lack of QoS (even DSL has options for high class traffic with EUBA180 etc).

You are 100% correct things like VPN/SD-WAN/etc are just a total nightmare over FWA/Starlink/WISP to get a reliable connection you need

also, gamers want a consistent ping which xdsl is 20ms (assuming high interleaving or lower without it) Starkink is like 70-80ms and FWA is around 40-50ms

For Chorus to say everywhere where copper is now and no fiber there will be a "viable alternative" is utter B/S so hence my earlier comment, pull out the Tax Payer wallet and build more fiber.

The first submission by BTG on page 68 clearly outlines this.... and was rejected by Chorus and Comcom, this clearly translates to me as

"Pay for NGA on Application then"

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

godber

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#3357594 26-Mar-2025 19:30

MichaelNZ:

That's the tip of the iceberg. Have a close look at the Broadband Map Zoom in and see the many little dots of pink many of which are in off the beaten track rural locations and holiday homes. Ask yourself how on earth they got it.

Are some locations being picked based on political and social connections?

I own one of those locations with a little pink dot.

Let me be very clear, the reason we have fibre is because we paid for it. As I have previously posted we paid $25,000 for an NGA On Application (NOA) install.

I find it offensive that you suggest that our location was picked based on political or social connections. It was not picked at all, the only reason we have fibre is because we paid for it.

Note a lot of the pink dots will be schools and not private residences.

Godfrey
Auckland/Coroglen, New Zealand
Quic Broadband - 4G Hyperfibre

Referral Link:
Quic (use R71004E9PVBJ on checkout for free setup)

MichaelNZ

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#3357596 26-Mar-2025 19:38

godber:

I own one of those locations with a little pink dot.

Let me be very clear, the reason we have fibre is because we paid for it. As I have previously posted we paid $25,000 for an NGA On Application (NOA) install.

I find it offensive that you suggest that our location was picked based on political or social connections. It was not picked at all, the only reason we have fibre is because we paid for it.

If you looked more carefully you would see there are lots of places which are small and free. Instead of being "offended" you could ask the same questions.

I used this because its a local example. Its a nothing town and even more remote then where I live. But there are plenty more like this around the country.

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CamH

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#3357622 26-Mar-2025 21:40

MichaelNZ:

It's very possible that the school was connected and then there's been a couple of connections who have paid to get on the network that's subsidized everyone else.

We saw something like this last year. Middle of nowhere, previously only ADSL. About 300m from the school, 2 businesses had split the cost of the initial install and everyone on the right side of the street was then able to connect to UFB.

MichaelNZ

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#3357624 26-Mar-2025 21:50

CamH:

It's very possible that the school was connected and then there's been a couple of connections who have paid to get on the network that's subsidized everyone else.

This is not a paying area. People here don't throw money around like that. They will just complain loudly if and when the copper is threatened. I know this because some of them have lost their precious PSTN landlines. But PSTN landline is not a service Chorus is required to support, whereas they are regulated for DSL and UFB.

I know this through being in local community forums, doing IT work for locals, and connecting some of them to UFB or DSL. None of these folk have paid.

The only paid connection I know of is the local RCG cellsite and it doesn't even show on the Broadband Map.

I have asked for this thread to be closed. Its only point is to make affected people aware of the ability to make a submission.

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Goosey

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#3357641 27-Mar-2025 06:18

Where do you make a submission?

online?

quickymart

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#3357761 27-Mar-2025 10:40

Goosey:

Where do you make a submission?

online?

Information for interested parties on making a submission
Process and timeline for making submissions

We are seeking submissions on our draft recommendation by 5pm on 9 April 2025. We then plan to invite cross-submissions by 5pm on 5 May 2025. Cross-submissions should only focus on matters raised in submissions. We strongly discourage stakeholders from raising new matters via cross-submissions.9

You should address your responses to:
Rachael Coyle (Head of Telecommunications);
c/o telecommunications@comcom.govt.nz

Please include “Copper Services Investigation” in the subject line. We prefer responses to be provided in a file format suitable for word processing in addition to PDF file format.
We do not intend to hold a conference or public hearing in relation to the proposed alterations. We believe engagement through submissions and cross-submissions will be sufficient.

NeillB

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#3357904 27-Mar-2025 16:46

Thanks to the OP for the heads up.

We recently had Chorus contact 3 of us neighbours with the intention of getting us to move off copper and choose one of the so called better available options. Even though we live within 10 minutes drive of Lower Hutt hospital we have practically no wireless connectivity. The best I can get on my phone is 2 bars (I tape my phone to the top of a window), if I wander around the house I get one bar or less. For phone calls we use our mobiles with Wifi calling over our VDSL connection. The VDSL is close to 50Mbps.

When the VDSL goes down it's a stressful time for us. Myself and my partner work from home as does one of the 2 neighbours.

The only service available to us is satellite, which I'm loathed to go as it's considerably more expensive and of the 3 people I know who have it they all report issues in bad weather.

The closest Fibre is around 300m away however the terrain is difficult. A few years ago Chorus estimated traffic management alone would be in excess of $30k. It seems using the existing overhead infrastructure / poles is not an option for them.

In cases such as ours I wonder if there could be a case to keep the copper lines as a "last mile service". Where the closest fibre terminates into a media converter to provide VDSL or VDSL2 over the existing copper. That would be an affordable option.

EDITED for grammer mistake

MichaelNZ

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#3357908 27-Mar-2025 16:56

NeillB:

We recently had Chorus contact 3 of us neighbours with the intention of getting us to move off copper and choose one of the so called better available options. Even though we live within 10 minutes drive of Lower Hutt hospital we have practically no wireless connectivity.

I suggest you hold out and encourage the others to do likewise. Given your proximity to a UFB area Chorus might extend the existing network if they have some incentive.

NeillB:

It seems using the existing overhead infrastructure / poles is not an option for them.

They used to do this but then changed the policy and now bury everything. I think this was dumb and has massively slowed the deployment. It might make sense in the leafy suburbs but in rural areas we don't care. Its not like they will be undergrounding the power anytime soon if ever.

If Chorus took this logical step they could have rolled out our whole township and the surrounding rural areas quickly and cheaply and done away with copper here by now. Likewise for a bunch of other places.

It seems so obvious.

In our area they already have the OLT (Optical Line Terminal) at the exchange which is the single most expensive component. So it won't take much to start rolling out that cable and stringing it up and then they can disconnect the DSL network and everyone is happy.

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richms

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#3357909 27-Mar-2025 17:01

NeillB:

In cases such as ours I wonder if there could be a case to keep the copper lines as a "last mile service". Where the closest fibre terminates into a media converter to provide VDSL or VDSL2 over the existing copper. That would be an affordable option.

That would end up with it like AU with their fibre to the kerb installs that seem to be one of the most problematic types.

I thought it would be a great idea for those places where people have obstructive neighbours or dont want to pay for thrusting and are not happy to have a lead in attached to their fence for free, but after talking to a friend in AU who has to deal with their WFH staff on NBN he said that its the worst ones to get fixed and are always needing to be power cycled because they go down.

Richard rich.ms

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#3357912 27-Mar-2025 17:10

danfaulknor:

FWA/Satellite/WISP are all well and good, but we (ISPs) can't do managed services over those like we can over copper (and UFB). Things like WANs. VPN is fine but you end up with a smaller MTU which is at best annoying and at worst causes issues. Not to mention the lack of QoS (even DSL has options for high class traffic with EUBA180 etc).

Some of our customers are getting a solid 100/20 on VDSL or more, so moving to FWA/Satellite can be a downgrade in terms of overall connection quality.

I do agree that copper is not the path forward - the copper network is old and prone to faults, and not commercially viable for Chorus to continue. Extending the UFB network as much as possible would be the ideal solution.

I could never go back to copper and my in laws in the middle of literal no where just got their ONT installed before Christmas. I know at some point their FWA connection is going to bog down to the point where it's no longer viable for their needs.

However they are lucky and was part of the Darfield/Kirwee expansion. Others are not so lucky... the UFB network does need to expand, but to do that... who's gonna pay for it?

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