Copper Services Investigation

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#3357917 27-Mar-2025 17:24

MaxineN:

Others are not so lucky... the UFB network does need to expand, but to do that... who's gonna pay for it?

Ideally the same way as everyone else (collectively ie: taxpayer) at least until the population pockets have been done. But that is not whats happening.

They appear to be playing some degree of favourites as they have, and continue to, roll out fibre underground to sparsely populated rural roads and seaside holiday spots while doing nothing about where we live (a rural township with near urban density) and a bunch of other comparable places.

Now they want to pull the plug on our DSL services (which work quite well where we are) and cast us off.

They should go back to what they were doing before and string it up along the poles and get the country properly connected quickly and cost effectively.

This is not to suggest the entire country. I am not talking about way out places. But we are not situated in such a spot and its totally fair for me to look at the Broadband Map and their 2025 rollout locations and ask why we (and other comparable spots) haven't been included.

If they said we were on the list for 2026 - 2030 then I would just wait. I have already asked and crickets.

Its also fair and reasonable to ask whether this push by Chorus is intended to draw a line on UFB and not increase the network any further then paying installs. Its likely no coincidence they have recently posted a series of videos on their Youtube channel pitched at developers.

In the ultimate act of double speak these same promotional videos take aim at unnamed (but its not hard to guess who*) other fibre networks who have rolled out catering for people in their areas and wireless. Yup, the same wireless as they advocate DSL users should switch to and be happy about it.

This is a dumb way to build public infrastructure.

However, if it comes to it I am willing to pay for an install. My key objection in this context is not about paying something - its the current system for rural installs is flawed and incentivises nobody to pay for UFB.

*A certain smaller ISP who has been rolling out their own GPON fibre networks and actively promoting this. IE: Not UFB.

Also worth noting is its possible to build GPON (1Gbps) and XGS-PON (10Gbps) networks ways cheaper then the numbers Chorus imply they are spending. That's how the smaller players are doing it. For example a 1RU OLT which can do 128 connections is well under $10k. Obviously there is cable, splitters, hardware, labour and consents needed on top. But the numbers are still not excessive.

Pictured is Cambium XGS-PON OLT. RRP around $15k. Dealer price = less then that. There are brand name options under $10k but this is the more expensive unit.

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RunningMan

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#3357920 27-Mar-2025 17:44

NeillB: [snip] In cases such as ours I wonder if there could be a case to keep the copper lines as a "last mile service". Where the closest fibre terminates into a media converter to provide VDSL or VDSL2 over the existing copper. That would be an affordable option.

In basic terms, that's exactly what VDSL already is. A fibre fed cabinet (or in some cases exchange) with VDSL line card(s) providing the copper connection.

Wheelbarrow01

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#3358028 27-Mar-2025 21:22

MichaelNZ:

NeillB:

It seems using the existing overhead infrastructure / poles is not an option for them.

They used to do this but then changed the policy and now bury everything. I think this was dumb and has massively slowed the deployment. It might make sense in the leafy suburbs but in rural areas we don't care. Its not like they will be undergrounding the power anytime soon if ever.

They did? Not as far as I am aware. Fibre reticulation methodology is and always has been largely dictated by the Resource Management Act.

Aerial pathway installation is always used where there are existing use rights. In these cases, the fibre is strung aerially as a replacement of the original copper cable (not in addition). It's essentially a one up, one down system and it's still very much done today.

In locations where the copper is underground, the fibre must also go underground in a like for like manner. It's worth pointing out that many streets have a mixture of both underground and overhead cabling and the fibre is handled accordingly. At our place for example, our neighbours on both sides are fed underground, but our old copper was aerial for reasons I've never understood - so our fibre is also aerial.

In new developments, the fibre must go underground. The master developer pays for this and it's generally factored into the list price for the bare sections when they are released for sale.

In existing property redevelopments it's slightly different again. Let's assume an old house with an aerial copper (or fibre) connection is demolished. As soon as that aerial cable is cut down off the old house, the existing use right is gone. The new house built on the site MUST be serviced via an underground connection. The developer will pay a fee for the conversion to underground reticulation from the base of the nearest pole to the replacement dwelling (plus a development fee for any additional dwellings built onsite that require fibre reticulation - also underground).

To address the specific comment of @NeillB above, while Chorus can use the existing overhead infrastructure, this can only be done on a like for like basis - taking down a copper cable anywhere a new fibre cable goes up. That's easy when it's a 2 pair copper cable not still being used by multiple customers. (eg in the case of a 20, 40, 50 pair copper cable - a likely scenario on a 300 metre stretch).

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

quickymart

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#3358029 27-Mar-2025 21:23

NeillB:

We recently had Chorus contact 3 of us neighbours with the intention of getting us to move off copper and choose one of the so called better available options. Even though we live within 10 minutes drive of Lower Hutt hospital we have practically no wireless connectivity.

Unfortunately your distance to a landmark/building/state highway doesn't mean anything when it comes to what broadband services are available. Having said that - it sounds like you're probably just outside of the cutoff area for fibre where you are (my guess is the western Hutt hills area going on your description).

raytaylor

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#3358352 28-Mar-2025 19:27

This sounds like another attempt to get a taxpayer funded expansion into norsewood.
One where i have previously posted about being uneconomic based on the drilling costs.

Michael, if you can sort out the civils - trenching, drilling and traffic management, i'll happily lay our cables into those trenches around the village. I have a couple of containers here full of microduct and a couple of spare OLTs ready to go.

With regards to chorus switching off copper, it needs to be done.

Not only are there plenty of wisp operators around the country, they are also in competition against starlink and several other LEO networks coming to market. Eg. Kuiper
Its not like there will be no options.

My fear though with the likes of starlink is the lack of salaries paid to local faultmen and installers within the community.
A wisp typically has a team of installers and faultmen who also perform tasks such as wifi extensions, data cabling etc and will look after the internal side of the demarcation.
Starlink doesnt employ people to maintain those skills and so because their salaries are not subsidized by the monthly service fees, getting someone in with those skills does cost a fortune.
People dont want to spend the money, so the skilled people go into other trades or move away which makes it even more expensive to try and find some one that does.

Eg. The only skilled wifi installer in central hawkes bay recently died.
We used to keep him 50% busy with wisp installations and fault jobs which meant he was available at a reasonable rate for the other 50% of his time for internal reticulation jobs.
He was also traveling all areas of the district regularly and so travel charges were cheap because if someone needed a job done, we would have him in the area weekly or fortnightly.
So now we are sending people down from Napier on 200km round trips which has made a simple $300 secondary AP installation now $600
I know of areas where the local wisp is no longer hiring based on future expansion because starlink is taking away revenue which would have gone into such skilled people in the community.

I have noticed a few customers in copper switch off areas where the installations have simply been too difficult and they would get left behind. Until they are the last few active copper connections in the area when Chorus wants to shut off the copper, then they suddenly get more attention and the installs seem to happen. I know of one site we have been waiting over 3 years (first order attempt might have been 5 years ago now) and another was waiting about 18 months.

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quickymart

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#3358353 28-Mar-2025 19:35

raytaylor:

This sounds like another attempt to get a taxpayer funded expansion into norsewood.
One where i have previously posted about being uneconomic based on the drilling costs.

Michael, if you can sort out the civils - trenching, drilling and traffic management, i'll happily lay our cables into those trenches around the village. I have a couple of containers here full of microduct and a couple of spare OLTs ready to go.

I think the issue here is that he is expecting the taxpayer (or Chorus) to foot the bill for all of the above.

MichaelNZ

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#3358354 28-Mar-2025 19:51

quickymart:

I think the issue here is that he is expecting the taxpayer (or Chorus) to foot the bill for all of the above.

raytaylor:

This sounds like another attempt to get a taxpayer funded expansion into norsewood.
One where i have previously posted about being uneconomic based on the drilling costs.

You realise that's almost everyone with UFB.

Including the 13km they are presently doing through Waitakere to reach around 40 clients. I have done the actual numbers for here and they could get the same number of connections in around 2.5km. So any talk of "drilling costs" is irrelevant.

And btw I am also a taxpayer. So I paid towards those free installs.

So how about this @quickymart - seeing you post so often on this thread and the other ones on this subject. Show us you paid for your install because if you didn't it means you were funded by Chorus or the taxpayer.

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raytaylor

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#3358357 28-Mar-2025 20:24

We should be clear
UFB funding was a loan, not a taxpayer grant.
Chorus made the numbers work for those loans.
The expansions have been at chorus' own expense.

Ray Taylor

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MichaelNZ

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#3358358 28-Mar-2025 20:38

raytaylor:

We should be clear
UFB funding was a loan, not a taxpayer grant.

The official number seems to be $1.75 billion of "government funding". Interesting the official position is biased towards promoting it as a rural network making specific mention of Haast, Ōwhango, Tuatapere, Eketāhuna and Opononi as well as images of seaside and rural locations.

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quickymart

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#3358359 28-Mar-2025 20:40

MichaelNZ:

And btw I am also a taxpayer. So I paid towards those free installs.

So how about this @quickymart - seeing you post so often on this thread and the other ones on this subject. Show us you paid for your install because if you didn't it means you were funded by Chorus or the taxpayer.

That's a completely different argument and sorry, I'm not going to engage in that one, because I believe it's a red herring.

MichaelNZ

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#3358360 28-Mar-2025 20:45

quickymart:

That's a completely different argument and sorry, I'm not going to engage in that one, because I believe it's a red herring.

Of course not because you didn't pay for it.

Your argument sounds like the Taxpayer's Union who called the UFB network "money down the toilet" in 2016.

What's the bet every single one of them and their supporters happily joined the UFB network and got a free install.

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quickymart

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#3358361 28-Mar-2025 20:49

FYI, I'm all for rolling fibre out across the country, I don't think it was "money down the toilet" at all (quite the contrary) - but at the same time, it has to be financially viable and generate a return. (as an aside: I can't stand the Taxpayers Union by the way, and totally disagree with their viewpoints on just about everything).

You keep complaining about "this place gets it, why don't we?" then other people come along and point out that usually somewhere right next door had it installed so it was easy to extend, or the population centres are larger than Norsewood. Having said that - I will grant you there is the odd case where that is not always the scenario though. Extending 13kms of cable to service 40 people doesn't sound right though - where is this happening? Edit, never mind, I think you're referring to somewhere in Waitakere, I just saw your other post.

Like Ray says above, if you can contribute towards the drilling the holes in the ground for a rollout (which costs a lot to do) it would probably go quite some way towards getting fibre installed in your township.

Is there someone local you know who could assist with your wish to get it installed? If you come to the party and pull your local community to get behind you, you might find the installation costs would be somewhat lower? Just a suggestion.

MichaelNZ

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#3358364 28-Mar-2025 21:12

quickymart:

You keep complaining about "this place gets it, why don't we?" then other people point out that usually somewhere right next door had it installed so it was easy to extend, or the population centres are larger than Norsewood. I will grant you there is the odd case where that is not always the scenario though.

Because that's the point. They aren't substantially different in size and in some cases low density as I cited with Waitakere as a current example. There are a bunch of others if you look on the Broadband Map Also be aware some of the numbers previously cited in the other threads are not correct. I live in the area and have spent the time and compiled the actual numbers.

I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt here because many posters live in cities and don't care about rural broadband because it doesn't affect them.

But they could at least have a good look before assuming stuff and see why I am asking when is our turn?

I can not over state this point.

Being in a rural place and having a small number of connections does not in any way exclude UFB as can clearly be seen.

This thing about paid connections is a red herring. I work in the industry and have discussed this with others in the industry. These people are all getting "free" connections. The number who have paid is very small. Its practically a red herring.

Furthermore, I know first hand what this involves because I saw it play out here in December when they installed an OLT into our exchange and ran a line to the RCG cellsite. This does not show on the Broadband Map. Stick an address which this cable goes right past the boundary into the Chorus checker and it comes back as "custom install" IE: they will pay too.

To clarify this point getting the RCG cellsite did decrease the cost to install UFB to our address because of the OLT and one cable pit being common. But its nowhere near free.

I am also prepared to pay. But as I have said the "custom install" situation offers much disincentive for me or anyone else to make the first move.

There isn't anything more I care to add to this.

I am putting in a submission opposing copper withdrawal prior to UFB rollout for the reasons I stated in my first post. I am realistic and realise the outcome could go either way. But there are others out there who are also affected and I encourage them to do likewise.

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Wheelbarrow01

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#3358371 28-Mar-2025 23:05

MichaelNZ:

You realise that's almost everyone with UFB.

Including the 13km they are presently doing through Waitakere to reach around 40 clients. I have done the actual numbers for here and they could get the same number of connections in around 2.5km. So any talk of "drilling costs" is irrelevant.

The Waitakere extension seems like a bad example, because the new build area is directly bordered from the north, east and south by areas that already have fibre, so it seems like it's plugging a local gap as opposed to connecting a satellite location some distance away.

This build extension includes Anzac Valley Rd, Wendy Rd, Steed Rd, a small part of Te Henga Rd in the south, and about half of Awhiorangi Promenade (the half that doesn't already have fibre).

See my crude representation below and compare to the extension map on the Chorus website:

map of Waitakere South

I'm not sure what your "13km they are presently doing through Waitakere" statement refers to? The area currently being built starts directly across the road from a location that already has fibre, and the entire extension only spans about 2.75km north to south as the crow flies.

Unless I'm mistaken and looking at the wrong area? (taken from https://www.chorus.co.nz/residential/fibre-extension )

The views expressed by me are not necessarily those of my employer Chorus NZ Ltd

MichaelNZ

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#3358374 28-Mar-2025 23:12

Wheelbarrow01:

The Waitakere extension seems like a bad example, because the new build area is directly bordered from the north, east and south by areas that already have fibre, so it seems like it's plugging a local gap as opposed to connecting a satellite location some distance away.

Comparing apples and with apples - the major cost of the network build is cable in the ground. And we already have UFB built to the Norsewood exchange. This was done last year. So the comparison is perfect except Norsewood has a far better case on the connections per km basis.

Wheelbarrow01:

I'm not sure what your "13km they are presently doing through Waitakere" statement refers to? The area currently being built starts directly across the road from a location that already has fibre, and the entire extension only spans about 2.75km north to south as the crow flies.

If you tally up the road distance covered using Google maps it comes to around 13km they are going to have to bury that cable and that assuming they only run along one side of the road.

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