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220 posts

Master Geek
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  # 232571 8-Jul-2009 16:06
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lchiu7: I have seen mention of capped in the US meaning something like 250GB. That would be quite acceptable for most people here apart from those who insist on watching TV from the US all the time or running web servers etc.



Yep, and that's 5-10 times the NZ caps (maybe a little less)---and their bandwidth costs are 1/5-1/10 ours.

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Master Geek
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  # 232576 8-Jul-2009 16:14
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Ragnor: All residential connections are a shared network best effort service, the whole argument about finding an unfiltered/unshaped plan is pure fantasy.

<contrarian>

The Internet is a shared network, best effort service.


Most (?) NZ IPs plans are unfiltered (unless you equate filtering to capping).


Fullspeed ADSL plans are unshaped (over and above the rate the line will run at).
</contrarian>


Smile




 
 
 
 


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  # 232623 8-Jul-2009 17:30
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NonprayingMantis:

uncapped plan?   Yes
offering at least 8mb/s?  No
unfiltered and unshaped?  Don't know.
30NZD/month?  No
offered to 75%+ of the popuation? No.


Why even mention it?


 


are you living in the perfect world?


corbina isp is available in moscow for about 3-4 million people which is already NZ's population. + there are 3-4 other ISP with similar plans in moscow who provide internet for another 2-3 million people.


btw, it's not DSL but cable. and if we talk about DSL and national company who provide internet for 20-30 million people, unlimited but only 256kbps-2mbit depends on the region.


and YES corbinas plans are totaly uncapped whit now shapping... people do 1-2TB a month but that's only because most of the traffic comes from national destenations.


But if you want somethin from overseas... the speeds won't be very different :)


so there are total unlimited plans in the world. and you don't need to specify these rules to find them out. just admit that NZ's ISP are way behind others (i'm talking about plans only. ADSL2+ is great... but with 20-40GB caps it's almost useless :))





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  # 232843 8-Jul-2009 23:23
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population of Russia = 140m

population of Moscow = 9m



Population of Moscow as population of russia = approx 6%.

Is 6% less than the 75% that was requested in the challenge? I'm no mathematician, but I'm pretty sure it is.



Yes it's uncapped downloads. So what? the challenge was to find a plan that fulfilled all those criteria - especially the ">8MB/s speed" one. you responded with a plan that fulfills one, and uterly failed on speed, not even coming in at half the required speed.

So I say again, what was the point in providing that link?



40GB cap useless? hardly. I think you will find that even with unlimited plans internationally the average person uses less than 10GB/month. Other than businesses and heavyP2P users (which are a relatively small % of the population), very few people use more than that.

Heck, I'm a pretty big online gamer and avid youtube watcher, and dload the occasional torrent and I rarely use more than 15Gb/month.





ETA: look, I;m sure there are plans out there that do all these things and more somewhere elese in the world.  I just wonder why you responded to the challenge with a plan that so obviously fails in every regard except unlimited data.

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Ultimate Geek
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  # 232868 9-Jul-2009 08:41
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stu28: In a couple of days time Telecom is going to release another Unlimited downloads plan see this thread: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=39&topicid=36644


And slingshot have started planning there own uncapped plan. I would guess that every ISP will look into this and see what options they have.

I will be taking a look at the comments and complaints if any on Telecoms and Slingshot plans. I don't care if traffic is limited or shaped in anyway as long as I can start a download and let it run anytime of the day then I would be happy, I am sick of free offpeak downloads and then having them limited so you can't download anything in a week. I suspect a lot of people would feel the same way I just want it to download 24/7 and get it done.

cheers
db




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  # 234992 14-Jul-2009 00:56
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NonprayingMantis, the reason of my postage was to demonstrate you that it's possible to have such a plans. One city is example. I'm sure it's harder to achive at country level... but hey Moscows population is twice NZ population yet they have lower prices and faster speeds with no cap at all.


Akamai announced it's report recently. about interner around the globe.


according to the figure 14. your points yet impossible to meet.



according to figure 20. fast is already at 2mbps :) so I think my statement about 2-4mbps plans was fair enough :)



 


However, there's nothing said about prices (I belive). So I can not comment on that.


and stop been so offensive man.





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  # 235007 14-Jul-2009 08:09
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NonprayingMantis: 40GB cap useless? hardly. I think you will find that even with unlimited plans internationally the average person uses less than 10GB/month. Other than businesses and heavyP2P users (which are a relatively small % of the population), very few people use more than that.


I am with NonprayingMantis here... I was told that the majority of people don't use 50% of their caps (whatever cap limit they have). My parents-in-law live on 5GB a month - with two laptops, heavy Trade Me action, Exchange server for their accounts, work from home and a VoIP solution by WorldxChange VFX.

The only people I see claming for unlimited caps are heavy file sharing users... And yes, I know P2P can be used to share Linux ISOs, but no I don't believe every single file sharing user is always downloading a new ISO image.

My point is "unlimited" or "no caps" is not a business requirement. It's someone's desire to consume more content - if it's possible to consume that much content anyway.

Generous caps yes, can change business. I *pay* for my 80GB plan. Some months we go up to 120GB, some months (like last June 2009) we hardly use 30GB.

If I go over 80GB I am happy to pay. I would obviously manage it differently if I had a 10GB plan. But then again I wouldn't be in a 10GB plan knowing how much bytes I need.





 
 
 
 


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  # 235031 14-Jul-2009 09:14
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kobiak: NonprayingMantis, the reason of my postage was to demonstrate you that it's possible to have such a plans. One city is example. I'm sure it's harder to achive at country level... but hey Moscows population is twice NZ population yet they have lower prices and faster speeds with no cap at all.




Akamai announced it's report recently. about interner around the globe.


 





 


and stop been so offensive man.




your post implied higher prices (you said $40-50 NZD (and that doesn't even take into account PPP) and lower speeds (you said theoretical 2-4Mbit/s)

I can get a theoretical 24Mb/s plan in NZ for $30NZD if cabinitised and 8Mb/s if not cabinitised.  Hence they are not comparable to the Moscow plan on price or speed.


Essentially what you have is a trade off between speed, price and data cap. The Moscow plan gives you data and the exepnse of price and speed.


The only benefit of the Moscow plan is the unlimited data cap, but if that is all you are interested in  then I can show you an unlimited internet plan in NZ for $10.  However the speed will be dialup (but you are only interested in datacap, remember).
I can also give you an unlimited BB plan for $60 (Speed and datacap at the expense of price and a bit of speed)



Apologies if I offended you.

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  # 235041 14-Jul-2009 09:27
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freitasm:

The only people I see claming for unlimited caps are heavy file sharing users... And yes, I know P2P can be used to share Linux ISOs, but no I don't believe every single file sharing user is always downloading a new ISO image.



I don't do torrents but with 4 people in the family, 3 of them doing lots of youtube, lots of VoIP traffic with calls averaging 30 minutes or more and some streaming video, my 40G plan barely copes. As I noted earlier I would like to watch more TVNZ or TV3 online but really don't want to up my plan to do that.

The ISP's say the cost is due to Southern Cross costs yet (at least TCL) don't differentiate between local and international traffic when local traffic can't cost as much.




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  # 235055 14-Jul-2009 09:59
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kobiak: [snip] but hey Moscows population is twice NZ population yet they have lower prices and faster speeds with no cap at all.


So. That's only one aspect.

- Does the Moscow ISP have less land area to deal with?
- Could they get away with far fewer service companies or people? (Given the much smaller geographical area?)
- Being in Europe, will they have MUCH lower bandwidth costs than in NZ?

You are comparing apples to oranges. It's an unfair comparison that ONLY takes into account number of customers and ignores many many cost contributors.

Regards
N




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Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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Master Geek


  # 235057 14-Jul-2009 10:03
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stu28: in 2006 Telecom released a plan call Go Large which offered Unlimited downloads, it went down the toilet as every one was downloading lots & it slowed right down, and Telecom had to refund all the Go Large users due to the problems they had


I shouldent tell you this but havent been an employee there for quite some time and dont want to work there ever again....

Actually as one of the price builders and testers on the Go Large project I can tell you that Go Large failed due to incorrect throttling, our marketers when I was there did grossly underestimate the amount of TCNZ customers who would take up the plan. They estimated 1 percent of TCNZ customers would take it up which I vigorously argued was not the case, after 3 months the uptake was breaching the 10 percent mark but this was not really enough to slow it down. The real culprit here was the software they had built from a third party (Alcatell from memory but I could be wrong) was actually throttling ALL traffic not just p2p traffic which it was supposed to do and was dong it at all times of day not just at peak usage times which again was what it was supposed to do. This was identified in testing (Me being one of the boat rockers) but management panic and government pressure meant that the testing results were largely ignored and Telecom had to release anyway.

The good thing here was that I got a 150 dollar gift basket after they decided I was right BUT it cost them millions to repair the customer relations fiasco it generated.

Believe me when I say TCNZ would like nothing more than releasing plans without caps or usage, this means easier pricing structures and less fiddly software in between the connections that can go wrong BUT the real problems here are not only the Southern Cross Cable but also local network capacity, at the time of Go Large it was widely recognised in TCNZ that the network was already running above capacity, with unbundling this has virtually pushed it to breaking point hence the reason TCNZ want to ditch the copper wire business.

Telecom New Zealand is always seen as the bad guy and sometimes they really dont help themselves but at the end of the day this is boiling down to the fact that you have alott of large rich international competitors that really dont want to invest in ANY form of infrastructure in NZ they just like to leach off of the incumbant, a situation not uncommon all over the world.

This is my experience and in some cases opinion, and not written on behalf of TCNZ.

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  # 235151 14-Jul-2009 13:33
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NonprayingMantis, theories , theories...

I'll repeat myself. I gave you an example that such plans exists in the cities (maybe smaller countries) for millions of people (twice population of NZ) with low prices and fast speeds as you wanted.

The most used way of connecting customers to the internet in big cities of russia is FTTB and then divided to each customer. that give theoretically over 100mbit to each customer :) and most of the locally hosted website, p2p and so on are giving these speeds. there's less necessety for overseas traffic as well...

my comment about 2-4mbit was for whole country (where applicable of couse, becase there are ares where no telephone, no internet, no cell, no electricity :) and that area is huge and people are living there - that aspect fcksup statistics).

and yes I aslo agree that 40-100gb as already enough for most of the users, including myself. But then its again about additional services that available for customers. if I have cable tv here in NZ for 30nzd with 50+ channels (movies, sports, etc) I wont need these 100gb on internet :)

that is applicable to cellphones as well.

IMO, internet, cellphone and cable TV should be cheap for everyone :)




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  # 235155 14-Jul-2009 13:37
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Talkiet, yeah man, I know :) I just gave example that its possible to provide cheap broadband service + unlimited + for millions of people within one city/smaller country.




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  # 235164 14-Jul-2009 13:53
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kobiak: Talkiet, yeah man, I know :) I just gave example that its possible to provide cheap broadband service + unlimited + for millions of people within one city/smaller country.


except, and I hate having to repeat myself yet again,  you provided and example that was MORE expensive than NZ BB, and SLOWER than NZ BB.  Check the speeds posted on this forum by people who have been cabinitised. Not uncommon to see 10+Mbit/s actual speed.   The Moscow plan shows Maximum speeds of 4Mbit/s, which means actual speed will probably be 1-2Mbit/s or less. That is quite a bit different.
Those huge speeds are attainable on any FS/FS BB plan in NZ that has been cabinitised.



Not apples with apples.

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  # 235172 14-Jul-2009 14:11
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NonprayingMantis, huh... have you even followed the link?

10mbit both ways for 31NZD, 30mbit both ways for 62NZD in Moscow is common (and these are unlimied) for the same price you could have caps of 22gb and 44gb (for 45NZD) respectively on 100mbit both ways.

2-4mbits both ways for 50NZD was a statement about country in general (urban area I would say)...

and I know yes, this is not fully what you wanted of 75%+ of all country population. BUT for a given city it works like a charm :D




helping others at evgenyk.nz


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