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  Reply # 310577 24-Mar-2010 09:23
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Bung:
old3eyes:

Dial any single number on a PSTN line in NZ and you won't get dial tone only on a PBX system.. 


1 is the escape digit from Centrex or PABX but you may not get a second dial tone. Some systems may require a valid number to be dialled in addition before forwarding the call.


This is a good point, actually as some users / businesses may not be fully aware that they have centrex, given that there is no PABX installed onsite ... 



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  Reply # 310579 24-Mar-2010 09:25
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Bung:
old3eyes:

Dial any single number on a PSTN line in NZ and you won't get dial tone only on a PBX system..?


1 is the escape digit from Centrex or PABX but you may not get a second dial tone. Some systems may require a valid number to be dialled in addition before forwarding the call.


Can you or somebody else confirm that? We are expecting a dialtone when an escape digit is dialed on the PABX/PBX systems. What do you get instead - no dial tone? Then a busy signal after 10 sec?



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  Reply # 310581 24-Mar-2010 09:30
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BartManGeek: If you are making a device to interact with the analogue phone lines in New Zealand you will need to visit this website and ensure you get the telepermit "green tick" before you can even connect to the phone line -> http://www.telepermit.co.nz/


Thanks for your advice. Since this is a medical class II device, it will be approved by NZ authorities so I assume a permission will be given.



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  Reply # 310587 24-Mar-2010 09:42
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freitasm:
verakot: The software uses an automated algorithm that detects a dial tone, instead of asking a user. The device could be used in offices as well, so the algorithm checks it we can get an outside line by dialing 0, 1 or 9. The problem we've seen in some other countries, is that sometimes when one of these numbers is dialed, there is a response that could be mistaken as valid dial tone.



In which case if you are directly connected to the PSTN you will hear a dialtone, and can dial 0, 1 or 9 - no other dial tone will be presented as these numbers have no special meaning on the PSTN. If the line is on a PBX then it's a different story.



Are you sure this is correct for all telephone service providers in New Zealand?

i.e.
Non-PBX:
- Pick up the phone - get continuous dial tone
- dial 0, 1, or 9 - get no dial tone for at least 4-5 seconds

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  Reply # 310590 24-Mar-2010 09:47
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verakot: the telepermit.co.nz website has ALL the stardards they have to be meet for use in NZ.
http://www.telepermit.co.nz/resources_index.html
and you have to go thru a certification process here
http://www.telepermit.co.nz/certification_process.html

I don't know how you know it will pass as you haven't put it thru the telepermit process yet.



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  Reply # 310595 24-Mar-2010 09:51
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My suggestion? Get someone local to help you with this. I say contact Gary Rogers (Jama here on Geekzone http://www.geekzone.co.nz/user_public.asp?user_id=2680) who used to do this kind of certification on Telecom. He also worked on certifying mobille devices for their network.

He's not with Telecom anymore, so you should be able to get some good information from him.





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  Reply # 310601 24-Mar-2010 09:55
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verakot:
freitasm:
verakot: The software uses an automated algorithm that detects a dial tone, instead of asking a user. The device could be used in offices as well, so the algorithm checks it we can get an outside line by dialing 0, 1 or 9. The problem we've seen in some other countries, is that sometimes when one of these numbers is dialed, there is a response that could be mistaken as valid dial tone.



In which case if you are directly connected to the PSTN you will hear a dialtone, and can dial 0, 1 or 9 - no other dial tone will be presented as these numbers have no special meaning on the PSTN. If the line is on a PBX then it's a different story.



Are you sure this is correct for all telephone service providers in New Zealand?

i.e.
Non-PBX:
- Pick up the phone - get continuous dial tone
- dial 0, 1, or 9 - get no dial tone for at least 4-5 seconds


Telecom's spec TNA 102 that applied to their older equipment staed

" 5.4
Timeout
(1)  Following seizure of a line by application of the off-hook condition, there are time
limits automatically applied for the commencement and completion of dialling. If the
correct dialling signals have not been received by the time these periods have
elapsed, then the line is released at the exchange and disconnect tone is applied.
These ‘timeout’ periods will vary depending on the traffic activity at the time.
 (2)   Under light traffic conditions, the maximum timeout periods are as follows:-
(a)   Time to dial first digit is 16 seconds.
(b)   Time between digits from the first to the eighth digit is 11 seconds.
(c)   Time between remaining digits is 5 seconds.
(3)   Under heavy traffic conditions, the above timeout periods are halved.
(4)   The above timeout periods apply to both DTMF and decadic dialling.
(5)   PABX timeout periods are likely to vary from those stated above."

The comment about PABX timeouts will apply to other networks as well. The Telepermit process only applies to the Telecom network, there's many more players now.

During heavy traffic after 5 secs you could be getting disconnect tone.



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  Reply # 310609 24-Mar-2010 10:10
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Bung:
verakot:
freitasm:
verakot: The software uses an automated algorithm that detects a dial tone, instead of asking a user. The device could be used in offices as well, so the algorithm checks it we can get an outside line by dialing 0, 1 or 9. The problem we've seen in some other countries, is that sometimes when one of these numbers is dialed, there is a response that could be mistaken as valid dial tone.



In which case if you are directly connected to the PSTN you will hear a dialtone, and can dial 0, 1 or 9 - no other dial tone will be presented as these numbers have no special meaning on the PSTN. If the line is on a PBX then it's a different story.



Are you sure this is correct for all telephone service providers in New Zealand?

i.e.
Non-PBX:
- Pick up the phone - get continuous dial tone
- dial 0, 1, or 9 - get no dial tone for at least 4-5 seconds


Telecom's spec TNA 102 that applied to their older equipment staed

" 5.4
Timeout
(1)? Following seizure of a line by application of the off-hook condition, there are time
limits automatically applied for the commencement and completion of dialling. If the
correct dialling signals have not been received by the time these periods have
elapsed, then the line is released at the exchange and disconnect tone is applied.
These ?timeout? periods will vary depending on the traffic activity at the time.
?(2)?? Under light traffic conditions, the maximum timeout periods are as follows:-
(a)?? Time to dial first digit is 16 seconds.
(b)?? Time between digits from the first to the eighth digit is 11 seconds.
(c)?? Time between remaining digits is 5 seconds.
(3)?? Under heavy traffic conditions, the above timeout periods are halved.
(4)?? The above timeout periods apply to both DTMF and decadic dialling.
(5)?? PABX timeout periods are likely to vary from those stated above."

The comment about PABX timeouts will apply to other networks as well. The Telepermit process only applies to the Telecom network, there's many more players now.

During heavy traffic after 5 secs you could be getting disconnect tone.


Is the disconnect tone the same as "Number Unabtainable" tone? Here is the spec I have for NZ from ITU/1994 "Various Tones Used in National Networks":

NEW ZEALAND
TONE FREQUENCY (Hz) CADENCE (Seconds)
DIAL TONE 17) 400 CONTINUOUS
RINGING TONE 400450 0.4 . 0.2 . 0.4 . 2.0
BUSY TONE 400 17) 0.5 . 0.5
CONGESTION TONE I 900 4) 0.5 . 0.5
CONGESTION TONE II 400 4) 17) 0.25 . 0.25
NUMBER UNOBTAINABLE TONE 400 17) 3?(0.75 . 0.1) . 0.75 . 0.4
WAITING TONE I 400450 0.5
WAITING TONE II 400 0.25 . 0.25 . 0.25 . 3.25
WAITING TONE III 523/659 3?(0.2 . 3.0) . 0.2
FUNCTION ACKNOWLEDGE TONE 440450 5) 2.0 . 0.4 . 0.2 . 0.4
PAYPHONE RECOGNITION TONE 11001750/7501450 0.2 . 0.2 . 0.2 . 2.0
HOLDING TONE 400/400450 0.5 . 0.5 . 0.5 . 0.25

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  Reply # 310616 24-Mar-2010 10:18
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All this information is in the Telecom PTC's as I linked to in a previous message

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  Reply # 310617 24-Mar-2010 10:19
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verakot:
Bung:
old3eyes:

Dial any single number on a PSTN line in NZ and you won't get dial tone only on a PBX system..?


1 is the escape digit from Centrex or PABX but you may not get a second dial tone. Some systems may require a valid number to be dialled in addition before forwarding the call.


Can you or somebody else confirm that? We are expecting a dialtone when an escape digit is dialed on the PABX/PBX systems. What do you get instead - no dial tone? Then a busy signal after 10 sec?


1 is a predigit for Centrex lines but doesn't give a 2nd dialtone, it's just part of the number.


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  Reply # 310618 24-Mar-2010 10:23
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It's also worth noting that not all lines are going to give you a disconnect tone. While ringing/busy tones are standardised across the networks other providers don't necessarily give a disconnect tone when the call is terminated.




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  Reply # 310649 24-Mar-2010 11:21
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sbiddle:
verakot:
Bung:
old3eyes:

Dial any single number on a PSTN line in NZ and you won't get dial tone only on a PBX system..?


1 is the escape digit from Centrex or PABX but you may not get a second dial tone. Some systems may require a valid number to be dialled in addition before forwarding the call.


Can you or somebody else confirm that? We are expecting a dialtone when an escape digit is dialed on the PABX/PBX systems. What do you get instead - no dial tone? Then a busy signal after 10 sec?


1 is a predigit for Centrex lines but doesn't give a 2nd?dialtone, it's just part of the number.



So 1 is a digit to escape from PBX, then you need to dial a regular 10-digit number, correct?
Are therey eny other escape numbers, such as 8 for instance?

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  Reply # 310657 24-Mar-2010 11:45
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Give the installer/customer the option of choosing the "pre-digit(s)" before dialing as there are many types of PABX's or alike. This is pretty standard for most things such as alarm system, EFTPOS, sky decoders in their set up.

It could be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 or 0- or anything depending on the setup of someone's PABX.

For Telecom Centrix service you have to dial a 1 in front of the number but as sbiddle said its part of the number. or my

Device pIcks up the line..
tests for dial tone.. via standard way.
If dial tone, dial number (with pre digits beore if needed) and wait for answer
if no dial tone..report error and try again..

so if the number you are dialing is 5555555 (auckland number)

then a normal residential would just dial 5555555
a person on centrix via Telecom would dial 15555555
a person on random PABX Vendor may have to dial 95555555
a person in wellongton or outside Auckland may ring 095555555
a person in wellington on Telecom Centrix may have to ring 1095555555

Saying that alot of alarm companies and EFTPOS etc have a "short code" like 1945 for example so the number is the same all over the country so you dont' have to worry about putting the area code in. All you have to do is ask the customer for the number to get an outside line and put it in.

I




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  Reply # 310661 24-Mar-2010 11:49
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verakot: So 1 is a digit to escape from PBX, then you need to dial a regular 10-digit number, correct?
Are therey eny other escape numbers, such as 8 for instance?

PBXs that I have encountered use a 1 or 9 prefix to get an outside line.  I believe there are others that use a 0, but I have never seen 8 used.

Another thing:  Phone Numbers in NZ are NOT 10-digits.  They are 7-digit if you are dialling within the Local Calling Area to which you are connected, or 9-digit if you are making a National Toll Call.

Then of course, there are mobile numbers which all have a 3-digit prefix, followed by 6, 7 or 8 further digits.

Nothing so simple as a US-style 10-digit number I'm afraid.  But it's good for us because when making landline calls, we usually only have to dial 7 digits instead of 10.  With mobile calls, the 3-digit prefix is always used, even if you are dialling another mobile on the same network.





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  Reply # 310666 24-Mar-2010 11:56
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freitasm: My suggestion? Get someone local to help you with this. I say contact Gary Rogers (Jama here on Geekzone http://www.geekzone.co.nz/user_public.asp?user_id=2680) who used to do this kind of certification on Telecom. He also worked on certifying mobille devices for their network.

He's not with Telecom anymore, so you should be able to get some good information from him.



Verakot, listen to what Mauricio is saying here - you will get a lot of information from these forums but to build your device based on this information is ludicrous. Hire someone (yes I know spend some $$) who knows the NZ phone system inside out and go from there.

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