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  Reply # 311655 26-Mar-2010 15:27
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maverick: Opps should have said, VHSI 30/6 and VLSI 128k

Well, in that case, it really isn't broadband then is it, so if everyone in these new subdivisions had any degree of geekiness whatsoever, they would spurn such a low-end offer with a vengeance.  I mean 128kbps Yell pfffft...

Having said that, I'm guessing that you have a high percentage uptake of VLSI because most people who build a new house in a fancy subdivision in Orewa are retired, so hmmmm, let me guess: 80% uptake of VLSI vs. 20% VHSI?

Or is the VHSI uptake even more dismal than that???





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  Reply # 311667 26-Mar-2010 15:59
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grant_k:
maverick: Opps should have said, VHSI 30/6 and VLSI 128k

Well, in that case, it really isn't broadband then is it, so if everyone in these new subdivisions had any degree of geekiness whatsoever, they would spurn such a low-end offer with a vengeance.? I mean 128kbps Yell pfffft...

Having said that, I'm guessing that you have a high percentage uptake of VLSI because most people who build a new house in a fancy subdivision in Orewa are retired, so hmmmm, let me guess: 80% uptake of VLSI vs. 20% VHSI?

Or is the VHSI uptake even more dismal than that???


Don't be too stero-typical there. The other part of Auckland that is capable of having Fibre is Addison Park which is in the middle of south auckland!!





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  Reply # 311673 26-Mar-2010 16:07
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brad_p: Don't be too stero-typical there. The other part of Auckland that is capable of having Fibre is Addison Park which is in the middle of south auckland!!

OK, that's good to hear.  There is still hope for a reasonable VHSI uptake then.

I am guessing:

-  Orewa 80% VLSI, 20% VHSI as before
-  Addison Park 50% VLSI, 50% VHSI

For a lot of people in these economically-constrained times, $54 extra per month is a significant additional cost which they would be keen to avoid.  IMO, it would make more sense if they added a middle-of-the-road plan with say 10Mbps down/1Mbps up i.e. the equivalent of a decent ADSL2+ connection.





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  Reply # 311674 26-Mar-2010 16:11
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Remember VSLI is effectively "free" low spec broadband since dialup isn't supported. It'a a good deal for a lot of people who don't need fast connections!

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  Reply # 311709 26-Mar-2010 17:54
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grant_k:

For a lot of people in these economically-constrained times, $54 extra per month is a significant additional cost which they would be keen to avoid.  IMO, it would make more sense if they added a middle-of-the-road plan with say 10Mbps down/1Mbps up i.e. the equivalent of a decent ADSL2+ connection.


Vector have just told is they've got thousands of people demanding faster internet. You're not suggesting for one minute that those people don't actually understand what they're saying yes to are you? Smile

Vector very carefully avoided any references to price. Most people saying yes are expecting their internet to be faster and cheaper. Unfortunately both options are radio boxes and only one selection is possible!



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  Reply # 311711 26-Mar-2010 17:59
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sbiddle: Vector have just told is they've got thousands of people demanding faster internet. You're not suggesting for one minute that those people don't actually understand what they're saying yes to are you? Smile

Hmmmm ... the naivety of the great unwashed...

Just about everybody wants faster internet, but they think that increasing the speed of their local connection is the silver bullet.  Then again, I'm preaching to the converted here, aren't I Steve Smile





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  Reply # 311764 26-Mar-2010 22:24
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grant_k:
sbiddle: Vector have just told is they've got thousands of people demanding faster internet. You're not suggesting for one minute that those people don't actually understand what they're saying yes to are you? Smile

Hmmmm ... the naivety of the great unwashed...

Just about everybody wants faster internet, but they think that increasing the speed of their local connection is the silver bullet.  Then again, I'm preaching to the converted here, aren't I Steve Smile


Exactly. It wont get cheaper for a while until there are economies of scale with the interconnect points etc, although these greenfields subdivisions don't have ADSL available and only have copper because its a test site so consumer takeup might be ok. When FTTD takes off there should be lower maintenance costs due to elimination of the copper maintenance, but it doesnt sound like Telecom is relishing the chance to phase out any obsolete copper.

A big advantage of fibre is that commercial users can exploit the same strand of glass for different service levels/costs by moving it to 100BASE-BX ethernet card on the same access node or a Gigabit switch. This could mean residential areas can easily get commercial grade service and eventually NZ hopefully becomes a net exporter of data.

Interestingly, Commsday also report that NBN Co in Australia plans has 12 cores to every splitter cabinet and "allocated a trunk tube and a distribution tube in every distribution cable". “Any business-grade service can have full geographic diversity both ways... we’re feeding the area in two directions,” compared to the single pipe for residential GPON service. Looks like they plan to add value for mission critical users.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 311770 26-Mar-2010 23:10
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webwat:
Exactly. It wont get cheaper for a while until there are economies of scale with the interconnect points etc, although these greenfields subdivisions don't have ADSL available and only have copper because its a test site so consumer takeup might be ok. When FTTD takes off there should be lower maintenance costs due to elimination of the copper maintenance, but it doesnt sound like Telecom is relishing the chance to phase out any obsolete copper.


Based on the numbers coming out of the NBN discussion docs though, the input price is still up at $A70 with very aggressive penetration of 100MB connections, something up around 90% by 2018!

Also, I might be being a little simple here, but aren't Telecom replacing a ton of copper via cabinetisation? (shorter lengths so less pressure sealed lines needing to be maintained for the long runs?)
Also Wholesale interconnect prices for the new range of Ethernet based access products are considerably cheaper.

And my guess is a 90/10 split for the current greenfields fibre trial sites.

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  Reply # 311787 27-Mar-2010 08:03
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webwat:
Exactly. It wont get cheaper for a while until there are economies of scale with the interconnect points etc, although these greenfields subdivisions don't have ADSL available and only have copper because its a test site so consumer takeup might be ok. When FTTD takes off there should be lower maintenance costs due to elimination of the copper maintenance, but it doesnt sound like Telecom is relishing the chance to phase out any obsolete copper.


Telecom are actually in the process of trialling their "Fibre Mk2" kit to some parts of Auckland that are having power moved underground. They are blowing both fibre and copper which connects to a cabinet so existing PSTN services remain available to those customers who don't want to move to fibre.

cymro:
Also, I might be being a little simple here, but aren't Telecom replacing a ton of copper via cabinetisation? (shorter lengths so less pressure sealed lines needing to be maintained for the long runs?)
Also Wholesale interconnect prices for the new range of Ethernet based access products are considerably cheaper.

Cabinetisation isn't actually replacing copper, it's simply duplicating the runs from the exchange to the cabinet. This copper is still needed for voice services at present and for ULL connections from exchanges where ULL services are offered.

I'm not sure if they're significantly different price wise but EUBA is a whole new kettle of fish and is the first wholesale service carried over ethernet. As Maverick pointed out, the CIR rates of the existing ATM network is one of the key bottlenecks at present and this is about to go.

For those who don't know what EUBA is it offers dual VLANs ofer xDSL (only ADSL at present) with a dedicated CIR for VoIP. This means that a CIR of up to 180kbps of dedicated bandwidth (enough for a VoIP call using alaw/ulaw) has it's own dedicated VLAN to ensure QoS.


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  Reply # 311799 27-Mar-2010 09:00
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sbiddle:
webwat:
Exactly. It wont get cheaper for a while until there are economies of scale with the interconnect points etc, although these greenfields subdivisions don't have ADSL available and only have copper because its a test site so consumer takeup might be ok. When FTTD takes off there should be lower maintenance costs due to elimination of the copper maintenance, but it doesnt sound like Telecom is relishing the chance to phase out any obsolete copper.


Telecom are actually in the process of trialling their "Fibre Mk2" kit to some parts of Auckland that are having power moved underground. They are blowing both fibre and copper which connects to a cabinet so existing PSTN services remain available to those customers who don't want to move to fibre.

cymro:
Also, I might be being a little simple here, but aren't Telecom replacing a ton of copper via cabinetisation? (shorter lengths so less pressure sealed lines needing to be maintained for the long runs?)
Also Wholesale interconnect prices for the new range of Ethernet based access products are considerably cheaper.

Cabinetisation isn't actually replacing copper, it's simply duplicating the runs from the exchange to the cabinet. This copper is still needed for voice services at present and for ULL connections from exchanges where ULL services are offered.

I'm not sure if they're significantly different price wise but EUBA is a whole new kettle of fish and is the first wholesale service carried over ethernet. As Maverick pointed out, the CIR rates of the existing ATM network is one of the key bottlenecks at present and this is about to go.

For those who don't know what EUBA is it offers dual VLANs ofer xDSL (only ADSL at present) with a dedicated CIR for VoIP. This means that a CIR of up to 180kbps of dedicated bandwidth (enough for a VoIP call using alaw/ulaw) has it's own dedicated VLAN to ensure QoS.



I don't recall seeing dual vlan support in the Service Provider Guide. From what I could see it's a single pipe for all traffic (voip, internet, management) with a packet sniffer to ensure traffic marked rtp is not dropped until a certain threshold is reached. Pretty draconian implementation as well.

Places a high onus on edge CPE to do the right thing. Good thing I've got some :-)




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  Reply # 311804 27-Mar-2010 09:25
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antoniosk:I don't recall seeing dual vlan support in the Service Provider Guide. From what I could see it's a single pipe for all traffic (voip, internet, management) with a packet sniffer to ensure traffic marked rtp is not dropped until a certain threshold is reached. Pretty draconian implementation as well.

Places a high onus on edge CPE to do the right thing. Good thing I've got some :-)


All traffic is tagged either best effort or real time http://telecomwholesale.co.nz/f176,260904/260904_25751_EUBA_3-0LC.pdf

There are only a handful of modems that can support this so it's not something that everybody can take advantage of. The Thomson RGW's and the new Cisco SRP527 are the perfect products for telco's wanting to deploy RGW's as a residential internet and VoIP solution. Smile


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  Reply # 311807 27-Mar-2010 09:48
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sbiddle:
Cabinetisation isn't actually replacing copper, it's simply duplicating the runs from the exchange to the cabinet. This copper is still needed for voice services at present and for ULL connections from exchanges where ULL services are offered.

I'm not sure if they're significantly different price wise but EUBA is a whole new kettle of fish and is the first wholesale service carried over ethernet. As Maverick pointed out, the CIR rates of the existing ATM network is one of the key bottlenecks at present and this is about to go.


You are right, I guess my mind was jumping ahead to 2020 where Telecom have regulation forcing them to replace all current POTS services with VOIP, at which point the copper should become a bit easier to maintain.

Don't have my Wholesale price book at home but the costs for an EUBA handover Vs a BUBA handover are something like 66% less, and the step charging for carrying between handovers is also more economical over EUBA.

TCF scuttlebutt is that we will have some product details on Wholesale VDSL2 in the next week or so, be interesting to see how they are building that.

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  Reply # 311823 27-Mar-2010 11:31
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sbiddle: For those who don't know what EUBA is it offers dual VLANs ofer xDSL (only ADSL at present) with a dedicated CIR for VoIP. This means that a CIR of up to 180kbps of dedicated bandwidth (enough for a VoIP call using alaw/ulaw) has it's own dedicated VLAN to ensure QoS.

Thanks for explaining that Steve.  It sounds like VoIP nirvana.





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  Reply # 311936 27-Mar-2010 21:15
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grant_k:
sbiddle: For those who don't know what EUBA is it offers dual VLANs ofer xDSL (only ADSL at present) with a dedicated CIR for VoIP. This means that a CIR of up to 180kbps of dedicated bandwidth (enough for a VoIP call using alaw/ulaw) has it's own dedicated VLAN to ensure QoS.

Thanks for explaining that Steve.  It sounds like VoIP nirvana.


Didn't sound like much fun when they first proposed it, with only 64k including all the ATM and L2TP overhead. If EUBA has all been nailed down by now then I wonder if they sorted out the options of how to manage excess realtime traffic, such as dropping packets or redirecting to the best efforts VLAN. Didnt know POTS-only customers hadn't been cabinetised at all, but they caused lots of problems with doing that for some ADSL customers (like 64kbps with pretty unstable noise margins).

How are new subdivisions going to work in future, are Telecom and the Fibre Cos going to be making competitive bids for cabling the area? Will the City own the ducts or will they have to be duplicated too?




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 312526 29-Mar-2010 18:19
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If EUBA is not enough for you voice requirements then there is always HSNS, then you can get something like 10 CVIDS if you really need.

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