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Wannabe Geek


Topic # 59427 5-Apr-2010 22:34
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My wife and I are coming back to NZ in toward the tail end of the year (August maybe) and I'm looking into the state of broadband.

I'm currently connected via a smallish LLU provider on adsl2+ annex M (25,474/2,550 kbps @ £22.50/month unlimited) and use around 100gig a month as we don't have a TV and use streaming TV and on demand.

Been looking around and think that one of the packages of 50gig might be ok. Been looking at Snap and Maxnet, but will welcome any suggestions.

What I want/need in an ISP:
Good community (fourm/irc/usenet)
Tweak-able settings (SNR/interleaving)
Would like annex M
Will probably be in Te Awamutu when we move back
Would defiantly look at naked dsl
Don't need email/webspace/bells/whistles etc

As we have been out of country for 10 years I'll need some adjusting to the NZ way of doing broadband ;)

Looking forward to any advice,

Charles

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  Reply # 315144 5-Apr-2010 22:38
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Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John

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  Reply # 315153 5-Apr-2010 23:06
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blueether: I'm currently connected via a smallish LLU provider on adsl2+ annex M (25,474/2,550 kbps @ £22.50/month unlimited) and use around 100gig a month as we don't have a TV and use streaming TV and on demand.
...
Tweak-able settings (SNR/interleaving)
Would like annex M
Will probably be in Te Awamutu when we move back

AFAIK, nobody in NZ uses Annex M ADSL2+, only standard ADSL2+, meaning that your Sync. Speed will top out at about 17 or 18Mbps.

VDSL2 trials have started, and there is talk of this service being rolled out in the major metropolitan areas later this year, but no way will Te Awamutu be on the list.

According to this document Te Awamutu is not due for ADSL2+ upgrade until April 2011, so until that time, you'll be on ADSL1 with Sync. Speeds of 7 or 8Mbps max.

As for "Tweak-able settings" Snap will turn interleaving on or off for you on request, but don't allow users to specify SNR so far as I have heard.  This will be determined by the profile set by Telecom Wholesale at your local exchange.

I hope that didn't burst your bubble too much, but at this stage you won't get anything comparable to your current setup in the UK unless you are lucky enough to move into a brand-new subdivision with FTTH, an area in Wellington or Christchurch which is served by Telstra Clear's cable network, or maybe a central city area in Auckland/Wellington/Christchurch with VDSL2 service later in the year.








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  Reply # 315157 5-Apr-2010 23:26
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grant_k:
blueether: I'm currently connected via a smallish LLU provider on adsl2+ annex M (25,474/2,550 kbps @ £22.50/month unlimited) and use around 100gig a month as we don't have a TV and use streaming TV and on demand.
...
Tweak-able settings (SNR/interleaving)
Would like annex M
Will probably be in Te Awamutu when we move back

AFAIK, nobody in NZ uses Annex M ADSL2+, only standard ADSL2+, meaning that your Sync. Speed will top out at about 17 or 18Mbps.

a 24 meg sync is fully do-able on adsl2+ on annex A - fastpath (annex M only changes the upload bins)
VDSL2 trials have started, and there is talk of this service being rolled out in the major metropolitan areas later this year, but no way will Te Awamutu be on the list.

According to this document Te Awamutu is not due for ADSL2+ upgrade until April 2011, so until that time, you'll be on ADSL1 with Sync. Speeds of 7 or 8Mbps max.

As for "Tweak-able settings" Snap will turn interleaving on or off for you on request, but don't allow users to specify SNR so far as I have heard. This will be determined by the profile set by Telecom Wholesale at your local exchange.

Am I right in thinking that Telecom use the braindead BRAS for line profiles? - God I'm going to miss an instant reacting sync/SNR
I hope that didn't burst your bubble too much, but at this stage you won't get anything comparable to your current setup in the UK unless you are lucky enough to move into a brand-new subdivision with FTTH, an area in Wellington or Christchurch which is served by Telstra Clear's cable network, or maybe a central city area in Auckland/Wellington/Christchurch with VDSL2 service later in the year.

my bubble is burst :(

BT is only just rolling out adsl2+ over here (as well as starting FTTC/vdsl2) but at least we have good LLU at the exchange.



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  Reply # 315159 5-Apr-2010 23:34
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blueether: a 24 meg sync is fully do-able on adsl2+ on annex A - fastpath (annex M only changes the upload bins)

Yes, understood, but from info. I have seen, Telecom limit the Sync. Speed to around 17 - 18Mbps to maintain greater SNR on our creaky old copper lines.

In Auckland, Wellington and some parts of Christchurch, Orcon, Vodafone and TelstraClear have installed LLU equipment in many exchanges.  Possibly if you connect via an LLU exchange, you may be able to get Sync. Speeds in excess of 20Mbps, but it would be pretty rare.

In any case, LLU is being made redundant in more and more places by Telecom's Cabinetisation rollout as per the document I linked to above.  Basically, any house in any town with more than 500 lines is scheduled to be connected to a cabinet or exchange no more than 2km away, before the end of 2011.  If your house is within 2km of an exchange, nothing will change, but in the majority of cases, this is not so, and it means that the broadband connection to that house will be re-routed to a roadside cabinet, once the rollout occurs in that area.

blueether: Am I right in thinking that Telecom use the braindead BRAS for line profiles? - God I'm going to miss an instant reacting sync/SNR

I know they do use BRAS in some parts of their network, but don't know if they control line profiles using BRAS.  Others on this forum could no doubt provide the answer for you.

Regardless of whether it is BRAS or not, I do know that Telecom Wholesale are the only ones who can change your line profile on their network.  In the case of an LLU provider, I am fairly certain that line profiles would not be accessible to end users either.





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  Reply # 315161 5-Apr-2010 23:50
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johnr: Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John


what do you define as many? 

maybe I'm just very lucky, but the last three times I have moved house in the last 4 years I have had no wait to get connected.



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Wannabe Geek


  Reply # 315167 6-Apr-2010 00:18
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Yes, understood, but from info. I have seen, Telecom limit the Sync. Speed to around 17 - 18Mbps to maintain greater SNR on our creaky old copper lines.
That must be a target SNR of 15dB or more.
In the case of an LLU provider, I am fairly certain that line profiles would not be accessible to
Having profile changes available doesn't mean that they will work http://beusergroup.co.uk/?id=277

Well it will be 'fun' going from an ISP that supports 44/4 meg bonded adsl2+ to good ol' adsl1

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  Reply # 315170 6-Apr-2010 00:51
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blueether:

As we have been out of country for 10 years I'll need some adjusting to the NZ way of doing broadband ;)

Charles


Yeah well welcome to internet hell, you will need to do some big time adjusting!!

But I would recommend Snap as a good ISP. 

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  Reply # 315176 6-Apr-2010 06:12
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Welcome home.

BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 315189 6-Apr-2010 08:06
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As said before, if you are moving to certain areas in WLG (including Kapiti) and CHC then you could get TelstraClear cable - which is a reliable service with plans up to 120GB (at a cost).

Alternatively you can get DSL plans from all other ISPs, but most will limit at 20GB and either charge a lot for overage or limit to "dial up" speeds the rest of the month.

LLU is slowing down, as the cabinetisation rolls out though. The ISP with most LLU is TelstraClear, then Vodafone and Orcon (there are others too).

If you get a nDSL option you could use a VoIP provider - I am on TelstraClear cable for example and use VFX as my VoIP provider. Actually ported my TelstraClear number of years to VFX and my phone bills instantly reduced. Alternatives includes 2Talk and iTalk as well.







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  Reply # 315194 6-Apr-2010 08:21
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Hi, Te Awamutu currently only supports ASDL1 and is not scheduled for upgrade till March 2011, with some of the cabinets in that area not scheduled to come on line for a couple of months latter.

As Grant pointed out, telecoms adsl2+ DSLAMs target a conservative 12dB S/N which restricts speeds to 18Mb/s max, however if you use DMT tools you naturally can override some of that, but I have not seen this used with much success and of course you cannot make the line sync targets stay after reboot.

Annex M is not supported on Telecom DSLAMs I understand this mode is locked out in the DSLAM so you cannot force it even if you try, however in Te Awamutu you may find the long reach option Annex L appealing, and it does seem to be supported, but as I said not in Te Awamutu as it has no ADSL2 DSLAM yet.

I suspect you are in for a bit of a shock, especially if you move to a remote area like Te Awamutu, and not just on the BB front. I would very much doubt Te Awamutu would be unbundled for a very long time, paraticipants who are installing their own gear in exchanges are stuggling to justify the cost in mainline exhanges let alone small towns.

Cyril

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  Reply # 315198 6-Apr-2010 08:24
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NonprayingMantis:
johnr: Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John


what do you define as many??

maybe I'm just very lucky, but the last three times I have moved house in the last 4 years I have had no wait to get connected.


Yes you are lucky have a look at the complaints over Geekzone when users have wanted ADSL and they have been put onto a waiting list

John

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  Reply # 315242 6-Apr-2010 09:53
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johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr: Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John


what do you define as many??

maybe I'm just very lucky, but the last three times I have moved house in the last 4 years I have had no wait to get connected.


Yes you are lucky have a look at the complaints over Geekzone when users have wanted ADSL and they have been put onto a waiting list

John


A bit of a self selecting sample I would say.

any chance of a ballpark estimate?  are we talking 10% of exchanges?  50% of exchanges?  90% of exchanges?

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  Reply # 315243 6-Apr-2010 09:56
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NonprayingMantis:
johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr: Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John


what do you define as many??

maybe I'm just very lucky, but the last three times I have moved house in the last 4 years I have had no wait to get connected.


Yes you are lucky have a look at the complaints over Geekzone when users have wanted ADSL and they have been put onto a waiting list

John


A bit of a self selecting sample I would say.

any chance?of a ballpark estimate?? are we talking 10% of exchanges?? 50% of exchanges?? 90% of exchanges?


No Idea that is why i used the word " MAY "

John

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  Reply # 315290 6-Apr-2010 12:49
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johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr: Many exchanges around NZ have waiting lists for ADSL ports don't expect to hop off the plane move into your new house and get connected. You go onto a waiting list and when someone leaves the next house gets connected does not matter what ISP you are with

John


what do you define as many??

maybe I'm just very lucky, but the last three times I have moved house in the last 4 years I have had no wait to get connected.


Yes you are lucky have a look at the complaints over Geekzone when users have wanted ADSL and they have been put onto a waiting list

John


A bit of a self selecting sample I would say.

any chance?of a ballpark estimate?? are we talking 10% of exchanges?? 50% of exchanges?? 90% of exchanges?


No Idea that is why i used the word " MAY "

John


you said MANY, not MAY, (typo maybe?)

I just wondered what you meant by 'many'.  a small percentage or large percentage?
the rest of your post:
 "don't expect to ... move into your house and get connected [straight away]" 
implies a majority of exchanges are full. (since if it was <50% of exchanges were full, then you would expect to get connected straight away since the chances of getting an exchange with a space > chances of getting a full exchnage)

I just wondered if that was true, and if so, what are odds of me moving house 3 times and each time not having to wait to get connected.

for eaxmple, if by 'many' you mean that, say, 90% of exchanges are full and I moved randomly to a new exchange three times, the odds of me getting an exchange with a space on it would be 10% x 10% x 10% = 0.1%.  So I was extremely lucky!

OTOH, if by 'many', you mean 50% of exchanges are full then the odds of me getting 3 exchanges in a row with spaces are 50% x 50% x 50% =  12.5%.   still pretty lucky, but not as lucky as if 90% of exchanges are full.



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  Reply # 315581 6-Apr-2010 23:29
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cyril7: Hi, Te Awamutu currently only supports ASDL1 and is not scheduled for upgrade till March 2011, with some of the cabinets in that area not scheduled to come on line for a couple of months latter.


I have regaind some hope that a half decent speed will be atainable after the adsl2+ rollout as the house we own* is about 800m by road from the exchange, so I'm hoping for under 1000m of copper, this should still allow a sunc of above 18000kbps at 6dB target SNR. I take it that this close to the exchange will never be cabinetized.

As Grant pointed out, telecoms adsl2+ DSLAMs target a conservative 12dB S/N which restricts speeds to 18Mb/s max, however if you use DMT tools you naturally can override some of that, but I have not seen this used with much success and of course you cannot make the line sync targets stay after reboot.


I run a netgear DG834GT with DGTeams' firmware on it so tweaking the snr is not a problem, at least for the downstream. 12dB seems like such a waist of headroom and sync. With my current ISP the users cant set a SNR that high with out supports help, we get the choice of 3,6 or 9dB in our members centre - 12 and 15 dB are only used by support if there is a line fault, and only untill it's fixed.

Annex M is not supported on Telecom DSLAMs I understand this mode is locked out in the DSLAM so you cannot force it even if you try, however in Te Awamutu you may find the long reach option Annex L appealing, and it does seem to be supported, but as I said not in Te Awamutu as it has no ADSL2 DSLAM yet.


A shame that annex M is not supported (it is an extra over here and comes at a small cost), but good to see that reach extended adsl will be in the DSLAMs.

Is SRA used/supported for longer lines (I guess with a default 12dB margin SRA would be almost pointless)?


* Don't own a house and live overseas, just not worth the hassle.

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