YouTube in NZ isn't the same as Googles YouTube

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hellonearthisman

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#329285 12-May-2010 11:58

If you use Youtube via an ISP cache, then the internal browser caching doesn't work as well as accessing YouTube without going through the ISP cache.

Users are getting billed for more data use than they would without using the ISP YouTube cache. That means the use of the ISP cache is making the ISP extra money, which breaks the Terms and conditions of YouTube as they are operating on the commercial level and are making money by selling access to the youtube data, when it should be cached by the users browser. That breaks the T&C of Youtube.

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duncanblair

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#329318 12-May-2010 12:38

hellonearthisman: I mentioned this on http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/fryup/fryup-three-of-the-best about how the Orcon cache is breaking youtube. And they are still doing it.

If I watch a YouTube clip in my browser and then open a new tab, paste in the same URL, I get sent another copy of the video when it should use the copy I have in my browsers cache.

Have had a chat with the tech guys, and we think we have figured out what has happened. Allow me to clarify.

I understand you are a Slingshot customer. This means that traffic is flowing from the Google cache (note, Google cache, not Orcon cache) to the Slingshot ISP cache, and from there to your browser. Turning the cache off is turning the Slingshot cache off, and you are getting the data direct from the Google cache.

Given that this is the case I would suggest that you take this up with your ISP directly, as it is not being caused by anything on our end.

hellonearthisman

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#329426 12-May-2010 15:43

Thanks Duncan, I was told that Slingshot has a deal with Orcon to use it's YouTube caching, sorry if I have made a mistake.

muppet

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#329441 12-May-2010 16:24

I don't quite understand this.

At home I tried to setup caching of YouTube content using a Squid Proxy. So that if I view a video and then send it to my wife, she views it out of the local proxy and not again over the DSL. Basically, an attempt at a small amount of BW savings.

No matter what I tried though, squid won't cache them. A bit more research shows that YouTube do some tricks to stop this working!

YouTube specifically implement several 'features' that prevent their flash videos being effectivly distributed by caches. There is even a (was GPL, now commercial) squid addon that enables caching.

Have I taken this offtopic? I don't think I have, but sorry if I have.

I just can't figure out how caching would work in the browser when YouTube are actively trying to disable caching by web proxies.

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freitasm

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#329453 12-May-2010 16:41

muppet: No matter what I tried though, squid won't cache them. A bit more research shows that YouTube do some tricks to stop this working!

YouTube specifically implement several 'features' that prevent their flash videos being effectivly distributed by caches. There is even a (was GPL, now commercial) squid addon that enables caching.

Correct. That's why ISPs can't just cache YouTube, instead having to "license" a Google box for this purpose - exactly the exercise TelstraClear has just gone through.

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muppet

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#329454 12-May-2010 16:43

freitasm: Correct. That's why ISPs can't just cache YouTube, instead having to "license" a Google box for this purpose - exactly the exercise TelstraClear has just gone through.

Ok, that makes sense - But how does the caching in the browser then work? If you're connecting to a Google Cache Box for your content do they change the headers so it is cachable by your browser?

If that's the case, my squid box at home should now be caching vids?

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insane

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#329569 12-May-2010 22:44

I'm surprised no one has asked the question why someone would watch a youtube video over and over again, each time closing their browser and re-visit the same video.

You also have to remember that the first time you viewed the video it would have been accelerated as a result of your ISPs cache. I'd rather pay for the traffic of the videos I re-watch later twice than having every youtube video I watch slow the first time.

muppet: I don't quite understand this.

No matter what I tried though, squid won't cache them. A bit more research shows that YouTube do some tricks to stop this working!

There are some mods you can do to squid to half get around this. I took a few hours out and managed to get some vids cached but it was a real battle as you have to keep working your squid.conf to keep up with googles changes.

PenultimateHop

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#329583 12-May-2010 23:23

insane: I'm surprised no one has asked the question why someone would watch a youtube video over and over again, each time closing their browser and re-visit the same video.

You also have to remember that the first time you viewed the video it would have been accelerated as a result of your ISPs cache. I'd rather pay for the traffic of the videos I re-watch later twice than having every youtube video I watch slow the first time.

I'm still curious about the correlation of an ISP having a youtube cache means that browser caches don't work!

Where I am, I have both a caching proxy (not transparent, admittedly) and a youtube cache nearby and the browser cache works fine. If I close load a video, close the tab, then reopen the same video, it replays immediately without needing to buffer/re-download.

insane

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#329600 13-May-2010 00:33

PenultimateHop:
I'm still curious about the correlation of an ISP having a youtube cache means that browser caches don't work!

I just tested this (my ISP makes use of the Orcon google cache) and I closed and re-opened the youtube tab a few times, even closed firefox and re-opened and re-loaded the tab and the video was not downloaded a second time so there is no problem at all.

The only time the video will re-download is if I skip forward in the video, then it will pull down from that point on again.

Browser cache size set to 300MB

PenultimateHop

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#329604 13-May-2010 00:55

insane: I just tested this (my ISP makes use of the Orcon google cache) and I closed and re-opened the youtube tab a few times, even closed firefox and re-opened and re-loaded the tab and the video was not downloaded a second time so there is no problem at all.

The only time the video will re-download is if I skip forward in the video, then it will pull down from that point on again.

Browser cache size set to 300MB

That matches both my expectation and experience.

hellonearthisman

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#329742 13-May-2010 12:49

Thanks insane for your testing and others for your feedback.
Insane, if the Clip is fully buffered then there adjusting the timeline position shouldn't cause a reload.

I have logged the fault with Slingshot and should here back in a couple of days.

Again, sorry to Orcon for thinking the issues was related to your services, I was wrong, sorry.

I found this issue most frustrating when, I would see an embeded YouTube clip and click through to watch it on the YouTube, because it would reload the clip instead of using the browsers cache.

freitasm

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#329746 13-May-2010 12:57

hellonearthisman: Back in Sunday, June 14, 2009, google released this message.

Note that link IS NOT a Google official blog. It's someone that posts tips about Google services, so it may not be accurate in some cases.

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insane

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#329916 13-May-2010 20:16

hellonearthisman: Thanks insane for your testing and others for your feedback.
Insane, if the Clip is fully buffered then there adjusting the timeline position shouldn't cause a reload.

This time I tested using a different video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxsN5QO9IyA and cannot get this to re-download, even when moving the video slider. I believe this is using my browsers cache though as I tracked my WAN interface with wireshark and didnt see any more connection attempts going out after the video was buffered.

I guess given that the slingshot cache is not strictly a google/youtube cache, results could vary.

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