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  #325362 30-Apr-2010 16:52
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Zeon: I would tend to agree. I wouldn't mind however seeing commercial/industrial areas supplied with more affordable fibre options. E.g. atm it's kinda like $2000 per month for 10mbps/1mbps international on a 36month contract. 100mbps National for $300-$400 a month would create a lot more update and could create a thriving SaaS industry in NZ.

In terms of peoples home, there isn't much point apart from new subdivisions or where the road is already being ripped up. TBH most of the speed problems are due to Telecom Wholesales poor backhaul network and pricing model. I think the biggest gain a Telecom independent fibre rollout will see is the ability to bypass that problem.

Maybe the 1.5BN could be used by companies like FX to build their own networks to the cabinets and provide a true high bandwidth competing option against Telecom wholesale.


I'm not too sure what pointas you are trying to make.

The high fibre costs now aren't just Telecom - they are all providers and they reflect the true cost of deploying fibre to a customer and delivering a high quality internet solution without CIR constraints.

I'm assuming you haven't followed the FTTH threads or advertising campaigns over the past few months - the $1.5 billion would be the governments share to deploy FTTH, not just to copper cabinets. The problem that everybody is facing however is the cost, with estimates from many people that a cost of a connection to the house (excluding all ISP costs) would be somewhere around $65 per month, a figure that's also being thrown around in Aysralia.

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  #325366 30-Apr-2010 16:58
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I agree fibre to the node then VDSL or 4G/LTE are good medium term solutions but isn't the point of building out FTTH long term thinking?

It's going to be even harder to roll out down the line if we wait another couple of decades. Won't we just be repeating the same mistakes we have made with rail and roads.

Look at the waterview connection, it's costing us $1.4 billion for 4km of motorway now to join up two major motorways. It should have been done 50 years ago as was originally planned.

http://www.aucklandmotorways.co.nz/southwestern/swwaterview.htm

Also are Finland, Korea, Singapore scaling back FTTH in the same way Japan and the US are? Japan the the US have some other major economic problems which are contributing factors there I believe.




 
 
 
 


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  #325374 30-Apr-2010 17:13
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Ragnor: I agree fibre to the node then VDSL or 4G/LTE are good medium term solutions but isn't the point of building out FTTH long term thinking?

It's going to be even harder to roll out down the line if we wait another couple of decades. Won't we just be repeating the same mistakes we have made with rail and roads.

I tend to agree; but I view developments such as this as a fairly exciting way of increasing broadband speeds in the near term while FTTH construction is ongoing.

People (especially here) often forget that it takes a long time to do things in telco networks and big organisations - even if FTTH was decided today, it is not going to reach 10% of the population much less 90% in a short term... but FTTN and high-speed VDSL offers opportunities to increase broadband speeds now (or in the very near term).

I have built FTTH networks - it is not a trivial process.  Heck, I'm currently working on a project to introduce VDSL and NGN switching at a mid-size telco and just getting the business case approved through executive management has taken nearly 8 months; much less actual design, vendor selection, testing, deployment, migration.



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  #326144 3-May-2010 18:29
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mindoka: does anyone know what's the average last-mile distance in nz?


Mr Ratcliffe from Chorus is quoted as saying,

"More than 50 percent of customers connected to our cabinets are within 500m and 90 percent are within 1km."

Source: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=8746 
 

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  #326180 3-May-2010 20:41
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teletek:
mindoka: does anyone know what's the average last-mile distance in nz?


Mr Ratcliffe from Chorus is quoted as saying,

"More than 50 percent of customers connected to our cabinets are within 500m and 90 percent are within 1km."

Source: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=8746



That's pretty misleading. Firstly, he says cabinets - that doesn't count exchanges. Isn't the minimum length for considering cabinetisation much greater than 1km? Something like 2 or 2.5, no? Which means the average length for exchanges is half of that, which is much more than 500m. Oh and then there's the uncabinetised areas, which will of course have a much much greater average line length. Secondly, the density isn't the same everywhere. That is, in the city centers, density is probably a lot higher than in the suburbs - and yet those in the city are mostly businesses, not households (note that he says "customers connected" not houses connected), which decreases the average length statistic while being less useful, since people are mostly interested in speeds to houses.

Basically what I'm getting at is that quote says nothing about the average last-mile distance.



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#326241 4-May-2010 07:37
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Screeb: Basically what I'm getting at is that quote says nothing about the average last-mile distance.


While the numbers quoted by Mr Ratcliffe do refer to the distances from Cabinets to Customers it does mean that 90% of the 417,000+ customers who are having, or will have, their DSL supplied from a cabinet instead of an exchange will be within the 1km range required to deliver the 100Mbps+ xDSL services reported in the original Bell Labs press release.




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  #326242 4-May-2010 07:44
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I think you will find Telecom have based their line length figures on the attenuation numbers pooring back from the DSLAM ports both in cabinets and exchanges, so there claim of various numbers is probably well placed.

Whilst in the more remote urban areas the line tails would be heading out toward 2km, from my observation due to the line density in city areas, and concidering the number of lines a cabinet can handle, cabinets are much much closer together and tail lengths much shorter.

Cyril

 
 
 
 


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  #326248 4-May-2010 08:23
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Screeb:
teletek:
mindoka: does anyone know what's the average last-mile distance in nz?


Mr Ratcliffe from Chorus is quoted as saying,

"More than 50 percent of customers connected to our cabinets are within 500m and 90 percent are within 1km."

Source: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=8746



That's pretty misleading. Firstly, he says cabinets - that doesn't count exchanges. Isn't the minimum length for considering cabinetisation much greater than 1km? Something like 2 or 2.5, no? Which means the average length for exchanges is half of that, which is much more than 500m. Oh and then there's the uncabinetised areas, which will of course have a much much greater average line length. Secondly, the density isn't the same everywhere. That is, in the city centers, density is probably a lot higher than in the suburbs - and yet those in the city are mostly businesses, not households (note that he says "customers connected" not houses connected), which decreases the average length statistic while being less useful, since people are mostly interested in speeds to houses.

Basically what I'm getting at is that quote says nothing about the average last-mile distance.


Both cabinets and metropolican exchanges have a design guideline of covering customers with a 2km radius. It makes no difference if you're fed from the cabinet or a metropolitan exchange, you will typically be within a 2km radius, and in the majority of cases (as their data shows), significantly less.

In low population rural areas where no cabinetisation is occuring this rule obviously doesn't apply and distances will be gerater than 2km.

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  #326588 4-May-2010 19:14
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sbiddle:
Both cabinets and metropolican exchanges have a design guideline of covering customers with a 2km radius. It makes no difference if you're fed from the cabinet or a metropolitan exchange, you will typically be within a 2km radius, and in the majority of cases (as their data shows), significantly less.

In low population rural areas where no cabinetisation is occuring this rule obviously doesn't apply and distances will be gerater than 2km.


That doesn't contradict anything I said, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I'm saying is that the original numbers tell us little about the average line length, and, as an answer to "what is the average line length", are misleading. Someone could be easily forgiven for assuming that from that quote, the average line length for households all across NZ is about 500m. It'd be great if that was the case, but it's not.



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  #326665 4-May-2010 21:58
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Screeb:
sbiddle:
Both cabinets and metropolican exchanges have a design guideline of covering customers with a 2km radius. It makes no difference if you're fed from the cabinet or a metropolitan exchange, you will typically be within a 2km radius, and in the majority of cases (as their data shows), significantly less.

In low population rural areas where no cabinetisation is occuring this rule obviously doesn't apply and distances will be gerater than 2km.


That doesn't contradict anything I said, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I'm saying is that the original numbers tell us little about the average line length, and, as an answer to "what is the average line length", are misleading. Someone could be easily forgiven for assuming that from that quote, the average line length for households all across NZ is about 500m. It'd be great if that was the case, but it's not.


You seem to have got things a little confused so I'll repeat the quote and try to clarify, for you.

"More than 50 percent of customers connected to our cabinets are within 500m and 90 percent are within 1km."

The quote clearly reads, "connected to our cabinets" and "90 percent are within 1km".

It's quite a jump in logic to claim it reads, "from that quote, the average line length for households all across NZ is about 500m".









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  #326746 5-May-2010 09:29
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Screeb:
sbiddle:
Both cabinets and metropolican exchanges have a design guideline of covering customers with a 2km radius. It makes no difference if you're fed from the cabinet or a metropolitan exchange, you will typically be within a 2km radius, and in the majority of cases (as their data shows), significantly less.

In low population rural areas where no cabinetisation is occuring this rule obviously doesn't apply and distances will be gerater than 2km.


That doesn't contradict anything I said, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. All I'm saying is that the original numbers tell us little about the average line length, and, as an answer to "what is the average line length", are misleading. Someone could be easily forgiven for assuming that from that quote, the average line length for households all across NZ is about 500m. It'd be great if that was the case, but it's not.


I would have to say from that quote the average line length for users connected to a cabinet is somewhere between 500m and 1km. From that quote that is all I'd be able to assume.  

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  #326987 5-May-2010 17:26
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teletek:
You seem to have got things a little confused so I'll repeat the quote and try to clarify, for you.

"More than 50 percent of customers connected to our cabinets are within 500m and 90 percent are within 1km."

The quote clearly reads, "connected to our cabinets" and "90 percent are within 1km".

It's quite a jump in logic to claim it reads, "from that quote, the average line length for households all across NZ is about 500m".


That's not what I said. I said someone could be forgiven for assuming that, given that you quoted those figures in reply to a question about the average line length.


Byrned: I would have to say from that quote the average line length for users connected to a cabinet is somewhere between 500m and 1km. From that quote that is all I'd be able to assume. 


Well yes, that is correct. But the point is that that's not immediately obvious to everyone, and he didn't clarify it. If you're going to respond to a question asking something very specific, then you shouldn't just give some numbers which don't answer the question correctly without saying something.


All I did was point out the limitations of those numbers, in case it wasn't obvious to everyone. I don't know why everyone has such a problem with that.

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