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637 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 358019 28-Jul-2010 23:17
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mgcarley: In India, whether you believe it or not, we have everything *in place* but not yet in operation because of one tiny little but entirely vital thing. Had I decided to choose a vendor like UTStarCom for my CPEs, users would have been connected months ago (as the company is Indian), but that companies gear is complete rubbish and I don't want to deal with it. CPEs will not be an issue in this country - NZ and China have pretty good relations, but who knows what issues I will face between now and when the experiment is finished? I don't, and none of you do either.

UTStarcom might be surprised to learn they're Indian.

For the rest of it, I remain incredulous.  I look forward to being proven wrong.



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Master Geek

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  Reply # 358041 29-Jul-2010 00:10
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hellonearthisman:
mgcarley:
hellonearthisman:?
That's an outrageous statement since your fair usage claims are less than what I get from my current ISP and it only costs me $50 a month.


1. I haven't made ANY fair usage claims for what I would do in NZ. I have made an uneducated guess, at best and even that would have been based on my Indian pricing. Big difference.
2. Which ISP, what plan, what speed, what technology?


You said on in the 1st page of this debate, you saud that an"unreasonable level" - say 100GB
To say that I'm being charged an outrageous amount for my broadband is just wrong and I seriously think you would be struggling to match them on value of service.

So, 1. Yes you did but you forgot.
2. My ISP is Slingshot my plan is 'just a brand name, which is no longer available but they have new ones that a almost as good' , my speed is FS/128Kbps and that's using ADSL1 technology (ADSL2+ coming later)

There isn't much point in having a GB connection when it gets choked to 256kbps for getting more than 100GB of data.

I would be surprised if you could off your service at $50 a month for 100+GB of data.
So again I say, your claim that I am paying an outrageous amount for my broadband is wrong. Some people on the FS/FS plans from Slingshot can get 300GB a month for $80. Your claims about the value of broardband from currently operating ISP in NZ is wrong.


"Say 100GB" means "for example, 100GB" - it's not a hard limit and certainly not set in stone. In addition, it's based on a general per-GB average cost, not (like Slingshot and Xnet in particular) having any kind of "unlimited hours". How much we could theoretically provide is loosely based on how much we charge vs the cost of raw capacity as it pertains to each GB's cost, and at the moment I don't have fine-grained figures for NZ on either of those things.

If we go by the amount I've used so far in July (nearly 90GB): 3.5GB has been national, nearly 85GB has been international. A lot of my traffic is made up with HD videoconferencing (a couple hundred meg an hour, 3-4 hours a day) and connections to websites and servers in very different parts of the world, so let us presume that most of you, however, are utilizing local/national resources a bit more than I - perhaps PSN, TVNZ, Youtube - stuff like that.

If those are all available as peered traffic and we don't count national/peered traffic, then let's assume something like... 7-10% local traffic for the average Kiwi, assuming relatively heavy usage and circa 100GB per month (correct me if I'm wrong, I am just rattling numbers off the top of my head here). Perhaps we can boost that usage in other ways so less of the total usage is counted, which is something we're actively trying to do in India and would do here.

Now, referring back to your situation, please realize that I'm talking about ~$50 all up, no need for a telephone line, whilst your $50 arguably does not include the line rental or plan cost. If I can find better details on what your plan actually costs you per month I'll use those numbers, but based on existing prices, at the moment Slingshot will offer:

2GB, FS/128kbits $24.95 + 2x 50GB Data Blocks = $124.95 + Homeline ($47 with Slingshot) = $171.95.
25GB FS/FS with no line rental (Naked DSL) $80 + 70GB of data (1x50GB + 1x20GB) = $155.
A far cry from $50 in either case, especially if these plans are "almost as good value". 

However, keeping those numbers in mind, I also have to wonder how much of your 100GB per month is taking advantage of Slingshots night time hours? If we use the same assumptions that you're on a plan that offers 2GB of day traffic and add a 20GB extra data pack ($24.95+$25), then unlimited traffic between 6 and 8am, you could theoretically then hit 100GB a month by utilizing 700MB during the day (average) and then ~2.5GB each morning for your $50.

I see no reason that a similar system couldn't exist for us - in fact, I believe we have a suitable range of plans already for the Indian market: the "night unlimited" phenomenon is quite popular there.

 
 
 
 




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Master Geek

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  Reply # 358044 29-Jul-2010 00:18
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PenultimateHop: 
UTStarcom might be surprised to learn they're Indian.

For the rest of it, I remain incredulous.  I look forward to being proven wrong.


Ah, I stand hideously corrected. I'm surely thinking of another company in that case. Somehow I'm still finding it difficult to get enthusiastic about the products they have available in India.



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Master Geek

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  Reply # 358063 29-Jul-2010 02:35
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hellonearthisman: 
You said on in the 1st page of this debate, you saud that an"unreasonable level" - say 100GB
To say that I'm being charged an outrageous amount for my broadband is just wrong and I seriously think you would be struggling to match them on value of service.

...


There isn't much point in having a GB connection when it gets choked to 256kbps for getting more than 100GB of data. 


I should also point out something which hasn't been made clear: this "unreasonable level" of 100GB would be for the lowest flat-rate plan.

In other words, flat-rate plans would have something similar to our Indian pricing:
5mbit/s $50
10mbit/s $75
20mbit/s $100
50mbit/s $150
100mbit/s $200

What would happen then is that if we had a fair-usage policy of any kind, it would apply in a staggered fashion - 5mbit/s might have an FUP of 100GB while 100mbit/s might have one of 500GB, and even then this probably would only apply to on-net traffic (eg VOIP and IPTV wouldn't count) and perhaps even certain peered traffic wouldn't count either - peering at HIX for example is relatively cheap so I don't see why we'd charge for it, and if we did, it wouldn't be much.

Data plans would be some basic line-rental (say $10) plus data packs delivered at full speed (as you're used to now), with the same policy of free or minimal cost on-net traffic.

Secondly, probably only 100mbit/s to the real internet and 1gbit/s on-net would apply at the moment (as outlined in the OP) and again, on-net traffic not counted so hopefully users can find ways to share information between each other inside our own little walled garden and/or any mirrors we might be able to host or peer with wouldn't be counted.

In any case, most people are far more likely to go from 5mbit/s to 256k after 100GB of international traffic as opposed to 100mbit/s to 256k, since that would only happen after 500GB of international traffic and so on.

(Please note that these numbers aren't for real, I'm just outlining hypothetical scenarios based on nothing at all).

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  Reply # 358068 29-Jul-2010 05:49
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National residential average data-usage per account per month is in the <10GB per month range currently, largely because of all the low usage mom and pop users.

It's only really multi-user flats, geek users, it pro's, etc that use >40GB currently.

Obviously this would change upwards with a triple play service with voip and iptv.  However, 100GB per month would still be a heavy user.

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  Reply # 367696 14-Aug-2010 23:24
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muppet:
mgcarley:
jmenz:?
Because they're not multihomed. Unlike what you assert your organisation to be. Or alternatively they're not pretending to be something that they're not. BGP is BGP is BGP man. It doesn't lie.


Which "they" are you talking about??

I'm not suggesting BGP is lying, I'm suggesting you're looking in the wrong place.?


Then you don't understand how BGP works.


They can still be multi-homed ish through their directly connected upstream provider and not have an ASN. Take virtual ISPs or collocation customers in New Zealand for example, they get their services off a 'real' ISP which is say multi-homed, and then claim that they are multi-homed.

They might also have a private ASN in which case I don't believe you will see it publicly.

637 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 367719 15-Aug-2010 05:20
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insane: They can still be multi-homed ish through their directly connected upstream provider and not have an ASN. Take virtual ISPs or collocation customers in New Zealand for example, they get their services off a 'real' ISP which is say multi-homed, and then claim that they are multi-homed.

They might also have a private ASN in which case I don't believe you will see it publicly.

The first case you describe isn't multihoming - it is clearly single homing. The second case of using a private ASN is possible but very unlikely in this scenario.... And it would be unusual for such a large ISP to do that.

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Wannabe Geek

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Reply # 466031 6-May-2011 08:20
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I would like to thank everyone specially Tim for digging this case further.

I am Anurag, a student from India and a guest blogger at TelecomTalk.info - a popular Indian telecom site.

We were already having eyes on Hayai & MG's claims and we found quite useful data here also. His post starting with "I am FTTH ISP in India" is totally wrong and misleading. He has no service up yet, and as others already pointed out - he just creating buzz with no real thing.

We have made a post today on TT site exposing him off - http://telecomtalk.info/authenticity-of-hayai-broadband/65462/

Thanks for your discussion and analysis.


--

Anurag 

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 466055 6-May-2011 09:35
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Haha why am I not surprised! From the first post we could tell this plan was not good. Who in their right mind would consider duplicating a national fibre network...

[Moderator edit  (MF): sorry, edited some words... New Zealand defamation law and all]





637 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 466058 6-May-2011 09:39
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Zeon: Haha why am I not surprised!  From the first post we could tell this plan was not good.

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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 466065 6-May-2011 09:54
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Just a note (and this is not a warning), but when writing comments please attack refrain from talking about someone, instead talk about something. You know, New Zealand defamation laws are not like the movies you watch and all...




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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 466137 6-May-2011 11:58
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Guys, c'mon. This is launching ANY DAY now.

5 posts

Wannabe Geek

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Reply # 466568 7-May-2011 21:19
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Interestingly blame game seems not ending at all. MG gave a blog post in reply! - http://goo.gl/m9ofc


And he again gave a false claim stating

Hayai does exist in both countries
Hayai is building a network in both countries
Hayai is launching
 

I already posted various reasons for non-existence in India, and I can see he seems now moving towards NZ market! :) 

Anyone heard of Infrastructure build up from Hayai in NZ? :)

It is correct that TelecomTalk.info is not permitting anymore comments from him since he tends to just misguide and carries on discussion endlessly. We are approving everyone else ("everyone" ) but for him we made condition of either providing us with licence from Dept. of Telecom (DoT) or launching services for end users. 

Also, I would like to mention either NZ population is more "technically literate" then Indian "tech. savy people" or may be it's result of good forum moderation here that we see valid points/discussion about things - and more important = true technical discussion rather then plain trash talking.

In Indian broadband forum (where MG is moderator + they have a Hayai section even before launch) = over 80% replies seem negative. Except 2-3, no one really went into points we raised, but just did personal attack or trash talk. I think it is either result of too much brain washing or may be most of those posts are from dummy accounts. 

(just for reference here's link of discussion about it at IBF - http://goo.gl/nHJBh )


Thanks.

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Wannabe Geek

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Reply # 466571 7-May-2011 21:26
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Also,

Dear Moderator,

MG claims that he tried posting his reply here, and was not able to.

Is he blocked here too?

If yes, can you please clarify reason for blocking him out from posting here?



Thanks. 

BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 466573 7-May-2011 21:34
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