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93 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 353160 18-Jul-2010 23:37
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jmenz: Yes, but it's obvious from reading the posts @ broadbandforum.in that you DO NOT run a broadband service in one country. It seems your whole Indian thing is on hold whilst you blame the government for CPE delivery hold ups. So you're asserting something that is not true. I think you've admitted you have no paying customers.

I don't think you're a con artist. I think you're delusional.


You're right - we can't take money until we get our CPEs and can deliver the service to the customers - otherwise that would be fraud.

I have asked those who have signed up if they would accept a media-convertor (to copper/ethernet) and then we use a more basic router to supply, but the consensus was negative.

But no such barrier for importing this kind of equipment exists here in NZ, so why not launch simultaneously?

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  Reply # 353162 18-Jul-2010 23:48
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If I am wrong, oh well, good luck but theres so many red flags popping up over this its not funny.

 
 
 
 




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Master Geek

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  Reply # 353168 19-Jul-2010 00:06
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kaljames79: If I am wrong, oh well, good luck but theres so many red flags popping up over this its not funny.


Red flags or not, I have no reason to explicitly lie about what I intend to do here, who I've spoken to and where I'm at so far. 

I've been at this thing in India for going on 2-years. I have established all the relationships, the infrastructure, the Indian Limited company (which, by the way is a major bitch for a foreigner to do even with a team of lawyers and 2 Indian citizens as partners), the investment and a bunch of people with names, addresses and payments waiting.

In fact, that's the whole reason I reached out to the audience directly in India in the first place - to find out from them what the problems are, what they don't like and what they want so that we can address those problems. The attitude difference between there and here is immediately obvious and quite sad - for you guys, anyway.

NZ used to be about giving it a go. Apparently, the people have given up and are entirely agnostic about something that I would have imagined to be exciting and for which I actually would have expected not just support, but a useful dialogue with which I could use to modify our existing plans to suit the New Zealand market.

Granted, I didn't mention the fact that approval is pending for our CPEs - thats why I'm even in NZ at the moment: there's no point in me sitting around doing sweet F.A. in India.

As for what's been done in NZ, I have been attempting to secure rights to re-broadcast TVNZ and Mediaworks content live, and I know where I can buy phone numbers for POTS access and where I can find someone to set up a good phone system. 

I have been to see Telstra, Orcon, WxC and Velocity and I have the contact details for those in the know at FX, Opto, Callplus and so on. I have organized a pilot for central Hamilton and I have lobbied with local politicians and I have had one of those arrange a meeting with Mr Joyce  in hopes that I might soon garner governmental support as a private operator looking to make a rumble in an otherwise relatively uncompetitive market, 

Anyway, I've already started, and I look forward to things moving a bit faster here, whether any of you give a toss or not - as if you'd have been able to sway me from doing my own thing anyway.

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  Reply # 353346 19-Jul-2010 12:34
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mgcarley: The equipment being manufactured in Taiwan, being treated as part of China, wasn't helping.

This is not correct at all. I deal a lot with Indian telcos (including those you have been mentioning) and I haven't seen any Taiwanese vendors impacted by the restrictions.

I stand by my original claim of trolling.

p.s. good luck operating as an ISP in India without a licence...



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Master Geek

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  Reply # 353380 19-Jul-2010 13:33
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PenultimateHop:
mgcarley: The equipment being manufactured in Taiwan, being treated as part of China, wasn't helping.

This is not correct at all. I deal a lot with Indian telcos (including those you have been mentioning) and I haven't seen any Taiwanese vendors impacted by the restrictions.

I stand by my original claim of trolling.

p.s. good luck operating as an ISP in India without a licence...


Because the equipment we wanted was not being imported even by Zyxel India, we had to get it approved ourselves. The same would have been true of equipment from any country.

What you are probably thinking of are ZTE and Huawei who actually made a noise about the restrictions, and rightly so because most of the wireless gear being used by Tata, Reliance and MTS is made by Huawei, and many of the ADSL modems are made by ZTE. Most of the cable modems are supplied by Scientific Atlanta.

P.S. We have a class-A license - the document on the DoT website is several months out of date, so... I don't know what you're trying to do/say/prove/whatever, but I don't see any reason to cease my plans to build what I want to build - in either country.

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  Reply # 353480 19-Jul-2010 16:26
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This is all very interesting. Like most people here, I'm a little sceptical that you will succeed as well as you hope, but I believe you are genuine in your intentions. Quite frankly I'm a bit disgusted (but not surprised) by some of the attitudes here.

If I can offer a criticism of any of this, it's that you're talking too early. This is why you're getting so much flak - we're all used to telcos over-promising and under-delivering, so when someone no one has heard of (relatively) comes out saying they're going to do this great new thing, people are bound to be sceptical. It seems like there's a lot that you've done behind the scenes, which is great, but people like to see real concrete stuff. Until you have a fully functioning website with final plans, prices and availability (even if it's just for the pilot area), not many people are going to take you seriously. Many not even until you have real customers actually using your service.

Further, I think people are wondering how it is that you would be able to pull this off, when no one else has even dared attempt FTTH in NZ outside greenfield projects. i.e. what is it that you can do differently that existing or other potential operators cannot?

Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck both here and in India.

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  Reply # 353699 20-Jul-2010 01:08
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mgcarley:
I don't intend to start a new network - I plan to build on what is already available in the way of open-access fiber, especially since most of those companies are themselves in the running for government funding - we're not really interested in that (although from what I understand, the government intends to buy pre-built networks anyway for the purpose of keeping a single network which is open to all). But, we want to concentrate mostly on being an end provider.

There is currently NO open access fibre, so you will have to wait for it and compete with the other ISPs when it arrives. Government is not buying any prebuilt network, its only taking a shareholding in  it as each segment is handed over to the Local Fibre Co. An "end provider" is not defined in this buildout, so you need to decide which layer of networking to invest in. You didnt want any involvement with user premise wiring, so perhaps you need to be reselling wholesale services to ISPs that are supporting end users.
mgcarley:
TelstraClear's fiber plans are a little murky at the moment, but they're not really looking at FTTH too much at the moment, and Telecom clearly wants to milk every last kilobit out of it's copper network, which I assume it hopes that it doesn't have to retire until 2020. By then we'll ONLY be about 15 years behind.

No they are probably part of a consortium that is reorking its proposal to include Layer 2, and keeping pretty quiet about it (as you do).
mgcarley:
Having studied deployments in several other countries, I'm not too concerned with the existing house wiring - most of it won't work anyway unless it can be retrofitted with a jack to plug in to our CPE, which as I may have mentioned is rarely (if ever) worth doing.

I take from this that you are planning to supply a Residential Gateway that connects to the network owners ONT. However, the point of having a gateway like this is to provide service to whatever wiring the user has decided to go with. It would be a NAT firewall and may supply HPNA, powerline, Ethernet LAN, or next year G.hn. Whether it needs some IPTV service might depend on what media is supplied by the ONT but unlikely to be profitable without HDTV services.
mgcarley:
I expect that we will provide up to 10m of cable from any given outer wall which in most houses I've been in to is more than sufficient - the CPE we are using has 2 fiber inputs (single-mode) so we don't have to worry about an additional ONT feeding a broadband router.

This will create a scenario where there is a single device feeding Broadband, TV and Phone. We can't even begin to predict anything about the phone or TV simply because everyone has different setups.

Well most phone is daisychained from the Telecom entry point. You might need to install video cable to a room where users dont have central UHF distribution. If you cant get high quality HDTV to the users TV then you might find half of them will buy from a provider that can make it work or stick with the existing ADSL service.
mgcarley:
Some people have old TVs, some have new. Some support an ethernet IPTV connection, others don't. Some people have Sky and/or Freeview. Then there are things to consider like home-theatre systems, DVDs, VCRs, PVRs and a myriad of things which may or may not work with what we provide for some reason or another.

So you would be selling them a way to get better service over a better network...
mgcarley:
But what about people who have separately installed phone jacks in each room? For those to continue working, we would need to run a cable from our CPE to where-ever the main connections feeding the lines are in order to retro-fit the house for VOIP over Fiber. Telecom in their latest FTTH presentation video are having the same issues, only not as much because most of the places they and WxC are deploying FTTH are new suburbs in which the houses do not need to be retrofitted.

Yup, thats what you would have to do, and also get high speed data to some of the rooms too. Otherwise pointless to buy something that doesnt work.
mgcarley:
Chorus have an advisory for getting your home ready for fiber - it looks like they expect the homeowner to do it http://www.chorus.co.nz/Get-your-place-ready 

Chorus only have 2 greenfields suburbs running a beta test at the moment. Yes the customer must install home networks when they build, but there will need to be upgrade services run as part of marketing for any ISP that wants to supply broadband over FTTH networks. FTTH is still coming, and you need to work out where your proposal fits in. You appear to be interested in either providing a Layer 2 service or buying capacity on a wholesale Layer 2 service. That will depend on whether you want to supply ONTs, OLTs, backhaul nodes, and comply with various requirements such as emergency phone service.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^



93 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 353855 20-Jul-2010 12:14
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webwat: 
There is currently NO open access fibre, so you will have to wait for it and compete with the other ISPs when it arrives. Government is not buying any prebuilt network, its only taking a shareholding in  it as each segment is handed over to the Local Fibre Co. An "end provider" is not defined in this buildout, so you need to decide which layer of networking to invest in. You didnt want any involvement with user premise wiring, so perhaps you need to be reselling wholesale services to ISPs that are supporting end users.


Not from those that I've spoken to. There is no *government owned* open access fiber is probably more accurate. The government hasn't even finished the tender process yet but still wants a photo op by EOY2010.


No they are probably part of a consortium that is reorking its proposal to include Layer 2, and keeping pretty quiet about it (as you do).


They have FTTN just about all over the country, but from there it turns to copper.


I take from this that you are planning to supply a Residential Gateway that connects to the network owners ONT. However, the point of having a gateway like this is to provide service to whatever wiring the user has decided to go with. It would be a NAT firewall and may supply HPNA, powerline, Ethernet LAN, or next year G.hn. Whether it needs some IPTV service might depend on what media is supplied by the ONT but unlikely to be profitable without HDTV services.


The residential gateway takes the 2 fibre inputs directly, eliminating the need for 2 separate pieces of hardware (eg, an ONT on the porch). Generally speaking we would deliver channels by default in Hi Def - the IPTV service merely means that we're not bringing the service in over-the-air, instead merely having the CPE connect to a specified VLAN hosting a bunch of servers straming a library of so-far about 400 channels. The only company that hasn't granted rights yet is Mediaworks, so no TV3 or C4 yet.

 
 Well most phone is daisychained from the Telecom entry point. You might need to install video cable to a room where users dont have central UHF distribution. If you cant get high quality HDTV to the users TV then you might find half of them will buy from a provider that can make it work or stick with the existing ADSL service.


It wouldn't be a challenge to do, just not our responsibility. If we can manage to include it in the price, we will. If not, extra wiring would cost a bit extra. The main issue is, however, old houses are easy to add new wires to (most of them sit on piles) whereas new houses have a concrete base and you can't install new wires as easily... Sky usually just drills in to the window joinery and seals it once the cable is fed through and an end attached.

Some houses built within the last ~5 years or so do come equipped with a Cat5-based star network which would be hugely advantageous to us.


So you would be selling them a way to get better service over a better network...


Yes. Unlike Sky, I see no reason to charge extra for HD. I've never seen that anywhere else, except where it literally came under a different package of channels.


Yup, thats what you would have to do, and also get high speed data to some of the rooms too. Otherwise pointless to buy something that doesnt work.


Fully agree. But houses are different, some people are more finicky than others and so forth. My parents simply ran Cat-5 around the skirting boards and across the hallway when they re-carpeted (I wasn't here at the time... I discovered this under a month ago. Seems like a botch-job to me, but works fine for them).


Chorus only have 2 greenfields suburbs running a beta test at the moment. Yes the customer must install home networks when they build, but there will need to be upgrade services run as part of marketing for any ISP that wants to supply broadband over FTTH networks. FTTH is still coming, and you need to work out where your proposal fits in. You appear to be interested in either providing a Layer 2 service or buying capacity on a wholesale Layer 2 service. That will depend on whether you want to supply ONTs, OLTs, backhaul nodes, and comply with various requirements such as emergency phone service.


We would provide additional install services for sure - that's a given. The problem is, I can't even predict pricing or scale of difficulty in some places because of factors I've already mentioned.

The main reason we face this problem *is* because it's a triple play service, all coming from a central point.

Sky doesn't have so much problem because they just stick the cable in the window or the wall to an entry point defined by the customer (where the main TV is) and they're done.

Telecom doesn't have so much problem because phone-line installation has been pretty much standard for years, and within the last 10-or-so years only has decent cable (cat5 or better) been used for that internal cabling instead of the old cat3.

I had a second-line installed once and all the Telecom guy did was staple the new cable to the wall with those plastic doodads and mount the wall-jack where I told him to. Some people would find this acceptable, others not to much. We would need to find a solution suitable for everyone.

Chorus are also coming out with this new device which supposedly limits the amount of re-cabling you'll have to do to get high-speed Broadband throughout the home. 

Aaaaaaaaanyway, basically what we are looking to do at the moment is:
Purchase wholesale bandwidth and national backhaul to where-ever we want to provide.
Use existing networks where possible to get to the neighbourhood.
Build our own network from neighbourhood pop to home. 

To deliver to Hamilton, for example, we can take a couple of routes:
Buy wholesale bandwidth from Opto or FX
Buy national backhaul from Auckland to Hamilton with FX
Buy city fiber from Velocity
Build from terminating points on Velocity's network.

TelstraClear have offered an all-in-one package including all those things and potentially would invest in building to areas that they don't already supply IF they are already supplying to most of the areas that they do.

I haven't spoken to Telecom Wholesale yet, but several things about doing that concern me anyway...

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  Reply # 353892 20-Jul-2010 13:21
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Wow, interesting thread do date...have only just come across it.

Unfortunately I don't have time for a full post right now, but I do want to throw a couple of comments in. Will try to come back later.

- Initial pricing for VOIP sounds on the high side. If a new player in the market wants market share they're gonna have to undercut the existing players.
- I work on the business edges of a very intensive IT environment. I consider myself leading (rather than bleeding) edge when it comes to tech, however I see again and again people in the industry hugely overestimating the average New Zealander's ability with and interest in new technology. If there is ANY expectation that average NZ's are going to pay for new cabling from the street to their house, or new cabling in their house for this service then I believe you are unfortunately mistaken. If anything else was true, why do Sky constantly have to offer free installs to get customers....and that's for a much lower fee than we're talking about here! There are exceptions, of course, they keep plenty of installers in business. But I'm talking about the volumes needed to make this work.
- I live smack in the middle of a new housing development, and have lived in two others. Fibre is NOT going in by default, and the level of knowledge in this area amongst developers, councils, new residents is VERY low. The reality is ADSL2 is going to satisfy 90% of the residential demand for services for some time to come. That other 10% are very vocal about how far behind we are, however that 10% are not going to pay for the other 90.

On a slightly more flakey tree-huggy note: I personally think we are coming closer and closer to a time when the consumers are going to cry enough. No more content please. No more services. Life is complicated and loud enough without someone trying to sell me yet another way to obtain content I don't have time to watch.....

Good luck with your endeavours, you'll need it. I don't say this with any sour grapes or ulterior motives - just a touch of realism :)



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Master Geek

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  Reply # 353942 20-Jul-2010 14:44
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smac: Wow, interesting thread do date...have only just come across it.

Unfortunately I don't have time for a full post right now, but I do want to throw a couple of comments in. Will try to come back later.

- Initial pricing for VOIP sounds on the high side. If a new player in the market wants market share they're gonna have to undercut the existing players.
- I work on the business edges of a very intensive IT environment. I consider myself leading (rather than bleeding) edge when it comes to tech, however I see again and again people in the industry hugely overestimating the average New Zealander's ability with and interest in new technology. If there is ANY expectation that average NZ's are going to pay for new cabling from the street to their house, or new cabling in their house for this service then I believe you are unfortunately mistaken. If anything else was true, why do Sky constantly have to offer free installs to get customers....and that's for a much lower fee than we're talking about here! There are exceptions, of course, they keep plenty of installers in business. But I'm talking about the volumes needed to make this work.
- I live smack in the middle of a new housing development, and have lived in two others. Fibre is NOT going in by default, and the level of knowledge in this area amongst developers, councils, new residents is VERY low. The reality is ADSL2 is going to satisfy 90% of the residential demand for services for some time to come. That other 10% are very vocal about how far behind we are, however that 10% are not going to pay for the other 90.

On a slightly more flakey tree-huggy note: I personally think we are coming closer and closer to a time when the consumers are going to cry enough. No more content please. No more services. Life is complicated and loud enough without someone trying to sell me yet another way to obtain content I don't have time to watch.....

Good luck with your endeavours, you'll need it. I don't say this with any sour grapes or ulterior motives - just a touch of realism :)


I agree with an understand what you're saying. It's a sad situation when even in new developments, Fiber is not going in by default. It sort-of proves my point regarding Telecom etc milking their copper for every last cent they can get out of it before they let it rot.

With regards to the pricing, yes, you can get an $8 phone lines from Kiwilink or whoever, and yes, you can get WorldxChange VFX service for $11.95 BUT both of these require a broadband connection for which you have to pay at least $50 for (and those probably being Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch prices too). I'm proposing $15-$20 as a fee for a standalone line (compared to Telecom's $42.05), and adopting a similar discount (say $10) to those who get a bundle, then is there any reason people might not switch?

We had already been anticipating subsidizing 50% of the ~$200 average cost of install anyway, making the cost to the customer something like $99. With that in mind, there is no reason that we can't run promotional offers for free installation (basic installation, that is). This is something I will need to determine feasibility for as I get to the point where I'm talking to the installation contractors.

As far as the speed of broadband is concerned, yes, in many areas ADSL2+ is "sufficiently available" at 10mbit/s or more. But the option for something higher is not there. In addition, very few ISPs look at the heavy user as someone they want on their networks at any price.

I would see ourselves potentially as being a provider to offer such a solution to these problems - offering some mass-market appeal while retaining some niche characteristics. With free or near-free on-net traffic (maybe even national traffic) and the possibility to consolidate 2, 3 or 4 services in to one without sacrificing anything and where possible, at a better price, then this is an angle from which we should look at marketing the service.

If it works equally well or better AND it costs less, there shouldn't be too much trouble in getting people to switch. I think my next step is to talk to contracting companies and get some more definitive pricing so that I can better estimate and announce a little more accurately what we would be charging for the various services.

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  Reply # 354297 21-Jul-2010 02:19
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mgcarley:

As far as the speed of broadband is concerned, yes, in many areas ADSL2+ is "sufficiently available" at 10mbit/s or more. But the option for something higher is not there. In addition, very few ISPs look at the heavy user as someone they want on their networks at any price...

... I think my next step is to talk to contracting companies and get some more definitive pricing so that I can better estimate and announce a little more accurately what we would be charging for the various services.


There is one major reason why ISPs aren't targeting the super high usage DSL users, not because they don't want to sell bandwidth for which they make a healthy profit, but because the wholesale DSL service has some serious limitations which means this is not a viable option.

I'd be very interested to know what sort of bulk pricing you could get from one or more of the current fibre providers, we sell these kinds of services and I can assure you that currently all the providers operating in NZ price their connectivity at a level way outside the realms of a residential service.

Keep us posted how you get along with Mr Joyce :)

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  Reply # 355888 24-Jul-2010 19:16
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Interesting that you are planning 2-core ONTs when GPON and 100BaseBX are the most common Layer2 technologies for FTTP, and both multiplex onto a single core. Not suprising that your government didn't approve them for residential rollouts. There are also good reasons why the ONT is specified as outside plant in CFH's RFP update, such as access for maintenance/testing, isolation of the premises network, and the fact that fibre needs to be secured anyway.

HFN (managed by Velocity) is probably the closest to open access fibre in NZ at the moment, but doesn't sound relevant since you implied that you will be doing the fibre drops, meaning that you would be an interconnecting network rather than a Layer 2 access seeker. "Interconnection" is covered by the Telecommunications Act, as long as you are a telco with your own fibre in the ground, as opposed to "access". Most networks are unlikely to offer access to dark fibre until CFH finalises local fibre partners. However you will probably find that Telstra is not well positioned to help you in areas outside Wellington, Christchurch and some business districts, since their POPs seem to be mostly at Telecom exchanges where it will be more expensive to install your OLTs.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^



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  Reply # 355943 24-Jul-2010 23:59
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insane:
There is one major reason why ISPs aren't targeting the super high usage DSL users, not because they don't want to sell bandwidth for which they make a healthy profit, but because the wholesale DSL service has some serious limitations which means this is not a viable option.

I'd be very interested to know what sort of bulk pricing you could get from one or more of the current fibre providers, we sell these kinds of services and I can assure you that currently all the providers operating in NZ price their connectivity at a level way outside the realms of a residential service.

Keep us posted how you get along with Mr Joyce :)


Interesting perspective. I'm aware of the xDSL limitations but I wouldn't have imagined this to limit providers in how much data they can allocate to a user if the user is willing to pay for it.

Orcon has plans up to 200GB for those that want to spend that kind of money, and were we to join the ranks of xDSL providers, I see no reason not to offer even more than that based on the same presumptions.

However, I will let you know a ballpark of what bulk pricing I can get (for both end-to-end solutions and bandwidth alone) and also how I get on in Wellington.

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  Reply # 355944 25-Jul-2010 00:05
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just ask xnet about the backhaul limitations. PPP drops are not uncommon with them too from what I have heard from others who contacted me after a post about it here...




Richard rich.ms



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  Reply # 355947 25-Jul-2010 00:23
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webwat: Interesting that you are planning 2-core ONTs when GPON and 100BaseBX are the most common Layer2 technologies for FTTP, and both multiplex onto a single core. Not suprising that your government didn't approve them for residential rollouts. There are also good reasons why the ONT is specified as outside plant in CFH's RFP update, such as access for maintenance/testing, isolation of the premises network, and the fact that fibre needs to be secured anyway.


While I understand what you've said, I'm not sure whether you're addressing me or not... Whose government didn't approve what? My government is the NZ government - I'm a citizen of this country, and a foreigner to India (which is also why I can not even "own" more than 74% in my own company). Most of what you've said is not relevant to our networks in either country and if you are talking about our network and what we want to build, you're over-complicating it a bit.

webwat: HFN (managed by Velocity) is probably the closest to open access fibre in NZ at the moment, but doesn't sound relevant since you implied that you will be doing the fibre drops, meaning that you would be an interconnecting network rather than a Layer 2 access seeker. "Interconnection" is covered by the Telecommunications Act, as long as you are a telco with your own fibre in the ground, as opposed to "access". Most networks are unlikely to offer access to dark fibre until CFH finalises local fibre partners. However you will probably find that Telstra is not well positioned to help you in areas outside Wellington, Christchurch and some business districts, since their POPs seem to be mostly at Telecom exchanges where it will be more expensive to install your OLTs.


I've talked with Shane @ Velocity. I'd be interested in utilizing their network, but TC has significantly more fibre, even in Hamilton, and while not open-access, we'd be better off for coverage - which may mean we would end up using both somehow.

Whichever we chose to use for a particular location, I believe we'd actually be both - we'd have fiber in the ground until the point where we can be picked up by VN or TC. My nearest VN fiber is about 500 feet away as the crow flies, and there isn't much stopping me running my own aerial fiber from a given point to my block and distributing it. VN would peer me at HIX and I'd probably buy a route from HLZ-AKL from FX and then Int'l capacity from either FX or Opto (in theory). 

As I understand, the government will probably finalize local fiber partners in about September, by which time we'd already like to be not just piloting but perhaps beginning to roll out something basic (in other words, at least Broadband and Phone) to a few customers.

VN and TC are both willing to offer access as soon as I write the cheque, and have given me maps which suggest that they actually have their own fiber nationwide. I was surprised to learn this too, but the person I was speaking to insisted that he has his own runs and a reasonably significant coverage area in cities other than AKL/WGN/CHC - I believe some of these maps are available at broadbandmap.govt.nz, and the information here seems to roughly coincide with what they told me.

I guess at the end of the day it all depends where you live as to what we could offer you and in what timeframe. I'm outside the TC coverage area, but they have said that they would invest in building out areas where there is the demand. It would be therefore up to me to create the demand in the under-served areas. 

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