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  Reply # 356197 25-Jul-2010 21:14
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sbiddle:
Which is exactly what will be happening in NZ if the existing Telecom FTTN network is used as a stepping stone for FTTH.

Getting fibre to a node end cabinet is the easy part - this has been happening throughout the country for the last few years as part of the FTTN project.

Getting that fibre from the node to the house is the costly part.


Yes and no. I think it depends (rather significantly) on your area. I have 2 roadside cabinets within 250-300m of my house, both cabinets are physically on the same block.

In my area I would have the option of aerial fiber. This obviously is not the case everywhere but it could theoretically bring the overall deployment cost down. However, in other areas we would surely have to stick to the underground to get people connected. How much this would cost would depend rather a lot on the results of the pilot and our first experiences with digging.

With that in mind, Telecom's fibre should (in theory) be adequate to provide the needed services. But if access to that fibre is in any way hampered (as I believe it is now, with that whole 32k per user issue that has been mentioned once or twice) - that will screw up the whole thing. 

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  Reply # 356224 25-Jul-2010 22:02
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Appreciate the detailed reply. Also appreciate this is your idea/dream etc, but surely you can see that attempting to drum-up support via online forums is not the usual way you'd kick something of this scale off. I also find it surprising you haven't even finished your Indian business setup before talking about starting here, but hey if you can multi-task two such large endeavours at once, more power to you.
I certainly don't think it's an impossible dream.

You mention "We" a few times. What is the name of your Company in New Zealand?
What sort of problems do you have getting CPE's approved for use in India? Which CPE did you choose in the end? I read a lot of forums but I missed this bit of information.

Please accept my apologies for the Google Docs comment, I am not able to amend my original post to clarify.

I'm curious what your AS number is, can you tell me what it is? My attempts to locate it failed and they're usually not hard to find. I'd also expect if you had your own network and were ready to launch it for customers, you'd also have gone to the trouble of getting your own IP addresses. You can't (usually) get an ASN unless you're multi-homing and to do that, you'd need your own address space.

From everything I've read, you're very good at talking the talk that gets end-users excited. But I spent at least an hour researching yourself and your business (in India) and I could find nothing other than many posts on public forums. No Press Releases, no news sites (aside from a couple of blogs) discussing a new entrant into the Indian ISP market.

I wish you all the best. It's just that in business, stuff only happens if you do it. Not if you talk about doing it.

Disclosure: I work for a company that's active in the FTTH market in New Zealand.




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  Reply # 356259 25-Jul-2010 23:27
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I can assure you that around here there are no ducts, and no new overground cables are allowed. There is also no fiber to a cabinet that is not going to be installed for another year.

But why are people so intent on bashing the idea. Its not your money, hes not sponging of the govt at this stage because the govt is still screwing around with their socialist monopoly idea. so if he gets something working, then its great and can be used. If he doesn't, then its no loss to anyone but himself and his investors. (like the ill-fated first media stuff)

IMO we should be encouraging this type of thinking, not telling him why he cant do it.

And if he has tried in india and failed, then that is a good indication that the same mistakes will not happen here too.




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  Reply # 356263 25-Jul-2010 23:41
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mgcarley: I've not personally done a detailed survey of said area so I can't say for sure one way or the other for the area in question., however if we can avoid taking things that I'm saying out of context it would be much appreciated.

Towns/neighbourhoods with rules against "sky pollution" would undoubtedly have conduits available. These may be open-access (owned by the council) or they may be private (right-of-way is granted to Telecom only, for example).

I don't know what was out of context???

Most small towns have not got conduits waiting for fibre, rate payers in my area haven't invested in infrastructure. Which takes me back to my original point that $200 not a realistic figure for you connect me to the exchange.

You really need to do some more research on the different councils around NZ, to see what rules they have on cabling and if they any have conduits (which there are very few). Using sewer lines isn't that practical as the cables would clog up the works, people flush a lot of random things down the bog that would get tangled in any cables present there. Plus getting council permission to do that would be a big ask.


http://hamilton.co.nz/page/pageid/2145827712/Cable_TV_and_Other_Network_Services

Council is actively promoting the under-grounding of overhead services and that service operators will be expected to join such schemes on a co-ordinated basis.

Ariel cabling is not a popular idea, even in Hamilton and have you got Resource Consent, that would mean contacting the people in the area where the cables are going in and asking if they have any objections to the sky pollution.

I'm not trying to be all raining on your dream, I just pointing out that you don't seem to have done enough research into the realities of the matter.



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  Reply # 356291 26-Jul-2010 00:45
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muppet: Appreciate the detailed reply. Also appreciate this is your idea/dream etc, but surely you can see that attempting to drum-up support via online forums is not the usual way you'd kick something of this scale off.


I was going to do it anyway - I have enough support from people who are frustrated by current options - the point of coming here was to ignite a discussion among New Zealand's geeks because if we pull it off, we'd anticipate the geeky to be among the first customers. Granted, probably very few of you are in Hamilton but when there is something proven and enough people from different regions say "I want it", it gives us a business case to scale up quickly.

muppet: I also find it surprising you haven't even finished your Indian business setup before talking about starting here, but hey if you can multi-task two such large endeavours at once, more power to you.


India's business continues - the project is currently stagnating because of the CPE issue. So, I call it "better use of time", and especially since I can hold my daily meetings on Skype, do I really need to be there until the things are approved?

Were I there I feel I'd be sitting around doing nothing... or otherwise getting escorted out of some cramped office in some decrepit building for trying to hurry an underpaid over-bribed government official.

muppet: You mention "We" a few times. What is the name of your Company in New Zealand?
What sort of problems do you have getting CPE's approved for use in India? Which CPE did you choose in the end? I read a lot of forums but I missed this bit of information.


The NZ company is simply named Hayai Ltd. I believe it's pending at the companies office.

The CPE is Zyxel FSG2200HNU. The problems could be compounded by the fact that we're importing them ourselves, they contain 802.11 technologies (which are heavily controlled) and may depend on Zyxel's response to the DoT about the transfer of technology to an Indian company (in other words, Zyxel has to license or supply an Indian manufacturer with it's technology within 3 years).

I'm not sure if it is a factor, but possibly my (as a foreigner) being the majority stakeholder in a telecommunications company may not help. I think the foreigner starting a telco is actually an India first. I may be wrong on both of these.

muppet: Please accept my apologies for the Google Docs comment, I am not able to amend my original post to clarify.

I'm curious what your AS number is, can you tell me what it is? My attempts to locate it failed and they're usually not hard to find. I'd also expect if you had your own network and were ready to launch it for customers, you'd also have gone to the trouble of getting your own IP addresses. You can't (usually) get an ASN unless you're multi-homing and to do that, you'd need your own address space.


We did go to the trouble of procuring our own IP block, however Vivek @ APNIC insisted that we should use our upstream providers first (so HNS were kind enough to give me a /20), and only after I'd achieved a certain number would they issue me my own block. From what I've read, this is standard procedure.

We have 4 upstream providers, not counting peers - I don't think you can get any more multi-homed than that (in India).

muppet: From everything I've read, you're very good at talking the talk that gets end-users excited. But I spent at least an hour researching yourself and your business (in India) and I could find nothing other than many posts on public forums. No Press Releases, no news sites (aside from a couple of blogs) discussing a new entrant into the Indian ISP market.

I wish you all the best. It's just that in business, stuff only happens if you do it. Not if you talk about doing it. 


I fully agree. But naturally we can't launch anything until we are actually able to provide a service, which we can't do without our CPEs. 

As I have mentioned on IBF, we could easily get around the CPE issue by utilizing passive media-converters and then simply supplying readily-available ethernet-based broadband routers - but the response was negative, in part because of some users with an FTTB provider in Hyderabad.

A similar (HFC network) approach could work here too... I've spent most of this evening measuring how much cable I will need to connect the 27 homes on my block (the circumference of which is about 650m) so as to work out the cost for supplying GigE within the neighbourhood.

In New Zealand I expect to face a lot less hassle and regulation, and expect that it will be marginally easier to get even a working prototype up and running. 

muppet: Disclosure: I work for a company that's active in the FTTH market in New Zealand.


Fair enough. 



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  Reply # 356294 26-Jul-2010 00:49
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richms: I can assure you that around here there are no ducts, and no new overground cables are allowed. There is also no fiber to a cabinet that is not going to be installed for another year. 


That is a problem. Who says the new cables aren't allowed? How is anyone supposed to connect anything? Perhaps as an alternative, something like FSO would have to be used to supply each block with a 1Gig link.

richms: But why are people so intent on bashing the idea. Its not your money, hes not sponging of the govt at this stage because the govt is still screwing around with their socialist monopoly idea. so if he gets something working, then its great and can be used. If he doesn't, then its no loss to anyone but himself and his investors. (like the ill-fated first media stuff)

IMO we should be encouraging this type of thinking, not telling him why he cant do it.


Everything I'm doing in NZ is self-funded. Will only go for investment if the idea takes off.

richms: And if he has tried in india and failed, then that is a good indication that the same mistakes will not happen here too.


India hasn't failed, it's stagnated until further notice. Not much I can do about it unless I can convince people that GigE media convertors are sufficient for now. We can still run Fiber to the Home, just the CPE won't be as cool. 



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  Reply # 356299 26-Jul-2010 01:04
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hellonearthisman:
Most small towns have not got conduits waiting for fibre, rate payers in my area haven't invested in infrastructure. Which takes me back to my original point that $200 not a realistic figure for you connect me to the exchange. 


I based my costs on a typical suburban area of Hamilton based on costing given to me by existing operators. YMMV - simple as that. I expect that if right-of-way were granted, we would invest in conduit and given that our part of the network would probably be OA, there's no reason that an increased outlay couldn't be recovered by leasing out to other providers. Last I read, Telecom gets $27 for ADSL subscribers per month though I expect this has changed since that article was written.

hellonearthisman: You really need to do some more research on the different councils around NZ, to see what rules they have on cabling and if they any have conduits (which there are very few). Using sewer lines isn't that practical as the cables would clog up the works, people flush a lot of random things down the bog that would get tangled in any cables present there. Plus getting council permission to do that would be a big ask.


It all depends on the available systems. Usually cables are against the ceiling of the sewer or at least high up on the wall, and the pipes carrying said cables are usually only a few cm thick, hardly creating a risk of clogging.
I don't disagree, however, this is what surveys are designed to determine: what is the best way to wire up each household in this area. A solution that works in Hamilton may not work in Auckland or Dunedin or Northland or Whakatane... and vice versa. As I've said, each area will have it's own nuances which will need to be dealt with when it comes time to connect people in those areas.

hellonearthisman: Council is actively promoting the under-grounding of overhead services and that service operators will be expected to join such schemes on a co-ordinated basis.


This would most likely involve working with Velocity Networks who in turn work with the council. I already have contacts there, so it's a start.

hellonearthisman: Ariel cabling is not a popular idea, even in Hamilton and have you got Resource Consent, that would mean contacting the people in the area where the cables are going in and asking if they have any objections to the sky pollution.

I'm not trying to be all raining on your dream, I just pointing out that you don't seem to have done enough research into the realities of the matter.


Again, I don't disagree with any of these objections - however to refer back to the previous paragraph, surveyors, contractors and the council alike would need to determine what is the best way for us to get a household connected.

With reference to aerial fiber, even in some areas of Hamilton (especially new subdivisions), Aerial fiber would not work (nor would it be likely to be permitted)... so it is safe to assume that the issue does get as fine grained as per-suburb or per-street, and it would be ludicrous for me to even suggest that we would cable each household the same way NZ-wide because I can not possibly know every single street in NZ.

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  Reply # 356313 26-Jul-2010 06:51
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mgcarley:
muppet:?Please accept my apologies for the Google Docs comment, I am not able to amend my original post to clarify.

I'm curious what your AS number is, can you tell me what it is? My attempts to locate it failed and they're usually not hard to find. I'd also expect if you had your own network and were ready to launch it for customers, you'd also have gone to the trouble of getting your own IP addresses. You can't (usually) get an ASN unless you're multi-homing and to do that, you'd need your own address space.


We did go to the trouble of procuring our own IP block, however Vivek @ APNIC insisted that we should use our upstream providers first (so HNS were kind enough to give me a /20), and only after I'd achieved a certain number would they issue me my own block. From what I've read, this is standard procedure.

We have 4 upstream providers, not counting peers - I don't think you can get any more multi-homed than that (in India).


Thanks again for your detailed answers.

A few things:

1) You didn't state your AS Number.

2) How are you currently multi-homed? If you're using HNS address space, how are you advertising that to your 3 other upstreams? It's not usual practise to advertise a competitor's address space.

3) Why does a search on APNIC for Hayai reveal nothing?




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  Reply # 356365 26-Jul-2010 10:00
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otherwise getting escorted out of some cramped office in some decrepit building for trying to hurry an underpaid over-bribed government official.

Wow, I hope the underpaid over-bribed government officials don't read that.
If you could back up those allegations then could you not take them to court or to the press.

It pretty unprofessional to start calling the government your working with corrupt.

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  Reply # 356423 26-Jul-2010 11:50
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hellonearthisman:  
Wow, I hope the underpaid over-bribed government officials don't read that.
If you could back up those allegations then could you not take them to court or to the press.

It pretty unprofessional to start calling the government your working with corrupt.


heh...plenty are prepared to....

www.indianexpress.com/news/corruption-in-government/636650/
 

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  Reply # 356458 26-Jul-2010 12:51
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mgcarley:
The NZ company is simply named Hayai Ltd. I believe it's pending at the companies office.

The CPE is Zyxel FSG2200HNU. The problems could be compounded by the fact that we're importing them ourselves, they contain 802.11 technologies (which are heavily controlled) and may depend on Zyxel's response to the DoT about the transfer of technology to an Indian company (in other words, Zyxel has to license or supply an Indian manufacturer with it's technology within 3 years).

We did go to the trouble of procuring our own IP block, however Vivek @ APNIC insisted that we should use our upstream providers first (so HNS were kind enough to give me a /20), and only after I'd achieved a certain number would they issue me my own block. From what I've read, this is standard procedure.
 


Have you planned/planning for IPv6?



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  Reply # 356846 27-Jul-2010 00:06
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muppet:

Thanks again for your detailed answers.

A few things:

1) You didn't state your AS Number.


Nor am I going to at this time. 

muppet: 2) How are you currently multi-homed? If you're using HNS address space, how are you advertising that to your 3 other upstreams? It's not usual practise to advertise a competitor's address space.


While we utilize our partner's address space, we have a convenient arrangement with them that allows us a lot of freedom.

Firstly, our primary NOC is about 100m from their offices and NOC, so between us and them is quite easy.

Secondly, not only are they not a competitor (for example, we operate in different segments of the market - they don't offer anything about 4mbit/s and we don't offer anything below 5mbit/s), but to top it off, our cores are directly connected to each other which allows us direct access to each others customer networks at zero additional cost which benefits us with the whole "local traffic" idea that we're advertising heavily. As such, our BGP tables advertise more-or-less the same routes because we are more or less on the same subnet(s), our connections to Bharti, Railtel, Reliance & Tata are technically separate.

There is another factor, however due to confidentiality I can't go in to great detail as it involves investments in both companies.

muppet: 3) Why does a search on APNIC for Hayai reveal nothing?


2 reasons I can think of:

1. We're registered at APNIC under an alternate company name at this time - when our renewal comes around later next month, I believe it will change.
2. We haven't yet been allocated any IP addresses of our own as I've already mentioned in previous answers, so if we don't have our own IP-block when the changeover occurs, I wouldn't be surprised if we still do not show up.



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  Reply # 356849 27-Jul-2010 00:15
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kyhwana2: 
Have you planned/planning for IPv6?


Yes and Yes.

In India both we and HNS are ready, and we are purchasing IPv6 address space. I believe our CPEs fully support IPv6, so I expect to utilize it at least within our network and to HNS. That being said, when I spoke to them last, neither Bharti, Reliance or Tata are fully IPv6 ready.

In NZ, it may be the same situation - I don't see why we wouldn't implement IPv6 at least within our own network and possibly with some peering partners if they are ready and willing to exchange IPv6 traffic.

It would be nice to utilize ONLY IPv6 in NZ with Class B/v4- to public v6 conversion done by CPEs and vice-versa back at our gateways, although I think it's still a bit "out there" and probably not yet practical, if not currently impossible - I expect we'd need all sorts of proxy and NAT traversal gear (unless someone who knows better than myself can suggest a practical solution).

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  Reply # 356852 27-Jul-2010 00:30
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mgcarley: It would be nice to utilize ONLY IPv6 in NZ with Class B/v4- to public v6 conversion done by CPEs and vice-versa back at our gateways, although I think it's still a bit "out there" and probably not yet practical, if not currently impossible - I expect we'd need all sorts of proxy and NAT traversal gear (unless someone who knows better than myself can suggest a practical solution).

DS-Lite or NAT64 and DNS64.

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  Reply # 356877 27-Jul-2010 07:00
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@mgcarley: Again, appreciate the time you took to reply.

The wheels on this farce have now pretty much totally fallen off though as your lack of technical knowledge is clearly showing. Of course, why you'd even be attempting to answer this instead of your Technical team makes no sense to me, but there's obviously no Technical team is there?

It's pretty obvious why you won't share your AS number. It doesn't exist. In case people reading are thinking "Maybe it's best to keep it secret?" it isn't. It's a public knowledge thing, the AS of the company I work for is 17492 for example.

I wasn't referring to you being a competitor to HNS when it comes advertising address space. What I mean is HNS giving you IP Address space of theirs and then supposedly allowing you to advertise that space to a competitor _of theirs_. This is how it'd have to work in your imaginary situation and, unsurprisingly, it doesn't work like that. If you want to multi-home you have to have your own IP Address allocation(s).

More-or-less the same routes/subnets? Sadly, routers don't care for more-or-less the same when it comes to routing. This is most absurd statement yet.

Finally, for APNIC to allocate IP Address Space and AS Numbers these days, they want to see equipment invoices with the name of the company requesting the IP Address space on those invoices. This is to stop people hording, you have to prove you have purchased the equipment on which the addresses will be advertised. You're not even sure if you might have registered under another name? Even though you can remember the names of people you've spoken to at APNIC?

@everyone else: I won't annoy you anymore (sorry, people) posting in this thread. No doubt mgcarley will reply with 10 mumbo jumbo reasons as to why what I've said is wrong but there's no point arguing with someone who will just blindly make stuff up.




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