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93 posts

Master Geek

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  Reply # 357401 27-Jul-2010 21:57
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muppet: 
Look it's a secret OK? It's critical to the awesome of the network that NO ONE know it.


Drop the sarcasm. Again, it's not the ASN that I'm concerned about. 

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  Reply # 357403 27-Jul-2010 22:02
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mgcarley:
jmenz: ripe tends to disagree with your assertions.

HNS has an Autonomous System Number of 38457.

http://www.ris.ripe.net/cgi-bin/lg/index.cgi?rrc=RRC001&query=12&arg=_38457_[0-9]

The above report shows the transit prefixes of AS38457 (Honesty Net Solutions)

Basically there's two ASN's downstream of HNS. Sureprep and Ankhnet. Which one are you?

Hmm. what's that smell?


:)

Both of those showing are local cable network operators. HNS supply to quite a number of different cable operators around Mumbai - why would these not show up in their downstream??


Because they're not multihomed. Unlike what you assert your organisation to be. Or alternatively they're not pretending to be something that they're not. BGP is BGP is BGP man. It doesn't lie.



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  Reply # 357412 27-Jul-2010 22:10
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jmenz: 
Because they're not multihomed. Unlike what you assert your organisation to be. Or alternatively they're not pretending to be something that they're not. BGP is BGP is BGP man. It doesn't lie.


Which "they" are you talking about? 

I'm not suggesting BGP is lying, I'm suggesting you're looking in the wrong place. 

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  Reply # 357417 27-Jul-2010 22:13
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mgcarley:
jmenz:?
Because they're not multihomed. Unlike what you assert your organisation to be. Or alternatively they're not pretending to be something that they're not. BGP is BGP is BGP man. It doesn't lie.


Which "they" are you talking about??

I'm not suggesting BGP is lying, I'm suggesting you're looking in the wrong place.?


Then you don't understand how BGP works.




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Master Geek

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  Reply # 357436 27-Jul-2010 22:24
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muppet: 
mgcarley: 
Which "they" are you talking about??

I'm not suggesting BGP is lying, I'm suggesting you're looking in the wrong place.?


Then you don't understand how BGP works.


I don't claim to be a BGP guru but that statement makes no sense and doesn't answer either question. I do claim, however, to know a bit more about the situation in India than most of you. 

Nevertheless this thread has gone way off-topic and no-longer seems to relate to the situation in NZ or what we intend to do here. If we can begin to migrate back towards the original subject, that would be great, if not, then that's fine too, I'll just get back to work on getting a pilot running and you may discuss amongst yourselves whatever the hell you like.

My plan remains to chug-along in both countries irrespective of what you guys have to say. And if I pi*s some or most of you off... good.

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  Reply # 357474 27-Jul-2010 23:06
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mgcarley:
muppet:?
mgcarley:?
Which "they" are you talking about??

I'm not suggesting BGP is lying, I'm suggesting you're looking in the wrong place.?


Then you don't understand how BGP works.


I don't claim to be a BGP guru but that statement makes no sense and doesn't answer either question.


Annoying, isn't it? A role reversal I am most pleased with. I'd explain how BGP works to you, but you'd just do your usual thing of saying "That's not how it works in India". Which is the equivalent of saying gravity works differently in India.

mgcarley: I do claim, however, to know a bit more about the situation in India than most of you.?

Nevertheless this thread has gone way off-topic and no-longer seems to relate to the situation in NZ or what we intend to do here. If we can begin to migrate back towards the original subject, that would be great, if not, then that's fine too, I'll just get back to work on getting a pilot running and you may discuss amongst yourselves whatever the hell you like.

My plan remains to chug-along in both countries irrespective of what you guys have to say. And if I pi*s some or most of you off... good.


I'm sorry if I appear pissed off, quite the opposite. I've enjoyed reading everything you've posted and the "Find the ISP" hunt has been a great little game for me. Still hats off to jmenz for finding the last Easter Egg.

Hey, if you really do setup and compete here you'd be welcomed with open arms. The tech community in New Zealand is a fantastic bunch of people, welcoming to one and all. Providing of course you don't seem to just be making stuff up or insulting their intelligence, both of which is what you appear to be doing. No one can find a shred of evidence of your ISP in India. Attempts to ask you any concrete details result in you you deflecting the questions and waffling on instead. Standard APNIC policies don't appear to apply to you.

At the moment you're the Internet version of the Fuel Saving devices you stick on your fuel line. They always have lots of talk surrounding them, the inventor won't actually explain the actual principles of how they work, they seem to break existing accepted "rules" (i.e more energy in than out) and they promise to do so-much-better than what the existing "big guys" are offering. The major difference best I can see is the Fuel Savings devices actually exist.

Tim




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Master Geek

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  Reply # 357504 28-Jul-2010 00:16
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muppet: Annoying, isn't it? A role reversal I am most pleased with. I'd explain how BGP works to you, but you'd just do your usual thing of saying "That's not how it works in India". Which is the equivalent of saying gravity works differently in India. 
 

I think we're not on the same page which has led to a myriad of misunderstandings. I'm not sure at which point I ever claimed to be an expert on BGP.

I've tried and clearly failed to explain how we procure bandwidth and how we distribute it, which in our arrangement is a lot different from the NZ option of going to Netgate or Vocus or whoever and procuring a pipe or reselling gigabytes and then talking to Telecom Wholesale and/or Chorus which basically gives nationwide access to pretty much every home in NZ. I could only dream of it being so simple in India.

Because of this, however, I hesitate to suggest that there is a lot more independence between ISPs here than there. Because of that, we took the route of joining in with a group of small ISPs to add buying power which pretty much halved our cost per STM overnight. In playing "try to find the ISP" obviously this has led to a lot of confusion.

muppet: I'm sorry if I appear pissed off, quite the opposite. I've enjoyed reading everything you've posted and the "Find the ISP" hunt has been a great little game for me. Still hats off to jmenz for finding the last Easter Egg.


I'm not 100% sure about that - he found that 2 cablewalas to which HNS routes data. However, HNS supplies at least 50 cablewalas that I know of - surely they too would show up on the BGP routing tables.

To add to the confusion, cablewalas don't purchase bandwidth - its more the other way around. HNS leases rights and/or cuts the operator in on overall revenue (the % is determined by the operator for this "privilege") to provide service on a given cable operators network. In this case, they act a lot more like mini versions of Chorus, but the average coverage area per operator is often under 10sqkm, so you have to deal with a lot more.

At the moment, without an active retail presence, we could currently be considered to be more a network operator (even if it is sitting pretty much idle at the moment). However, the moment we do connect customers we will be supplying them directly (no middlemen), we'll be playing the role of both ISP and Network Operator.

The only other ISPs who do this really are MTNL and BSNL, however, part of why we think we will be better is that customers are paying more for our service (though the speed and/or data allowances are significantly better). 

The large private ISPs - Airtel, Hathway, Reliance, Tata and YOU Telecom (for the most part) do not have their own retail networks even though they all supply retail services, and even then I think Airtel is the only one that is really building it's own on any significant scale. It literally varies by building as to what ISP you can connect to. Where I used to live in Dadar I could not get Airtel Broadband, yet Airtel had fibre running less than 50m from my house and a store less than 300m away. I had to get service through some cable provider. 

While MTNL and BSNL are stuck supplying services to users who want an ADSL connection for between 50 and 300 rupees a month (NZ$1.70), we're not doing anything on the low-end of the pricing scale, which gives us some freedom and I think allows us to have a healthier network overall, because we can actually afford to maintain it.

muppet: 
Hey, if you really do setup and compete here you'd be welcomed with open arms. The tech community in New Zealand is a fantastic bunch of people, welcoming to one and all. Providing of course you don't seem to just be making stuff up or insulting their intelligence, both of which is what you appear to be doing. No one can find a shred of evidence of your ISP in India. Attempts to ask you any concrete details result in you you deflecting the questions and waffling on instead. Standard APNIC policies don't appear to apply to you.


You probably can't find much evidence of my former ISP (RajeshNet) except on forums, but they exist. Likewise with another ISP called Nivyah. They apparently exist but I've never seen anyone genuinely claim to be a customer - even though I know who runs it and where they get their bandwidth and how much they pay for it.

As I've been trying to tell you - India is a mess - especially (but not only) the last mile - and you can't really rely on any information. I found that out the hard way. I had to find out most of what I now know from speaking to a lot of different people at various ISPs.

As I've said before just because I'm not willing to provide the ASN at this time but I fear I could explain all about India until I'm blue in the face and you'd still come back with a "but............" I've said that I *can not* reveal the company at this time for confidentiality reasons and no amount of calling me a liar or whatever will change my mind on that. Sorry to disappoint.

As for APNIC policies, standard APNIC policies do indeed apply to us and this is precisely why we do not have any our own IP block yet. As I've mentioned, I suspect that on the same day we connect our first customers, we will apply for our own block(s).

muppet: At the moment you're the Internet version of the Fuel Saving devices you stick on your fuel line. They always have lots of talk surrounding them, the inventor won't actually explain the actual principles of how they work, they seem to break existing accepted "rules" (i.e more energy in than out) and they promise to do so-much-better than what the existing "big guys" are offering. The major difference best I can see is the Fuel Savings devices actually exist.

Tim


Fair enough, but surely the discussion relating to what's going on in India is not relevant to what is going on here in NZ. The two countries are worlds apart in pretty much every way except the relatively high cost of Internet access. I have clearly stated that what's going on in NZ is strictly in the planning stage and that a pilot has been organized.

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  Reply # 357526 28-Jul-2010 06:48
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mgcarley: Fair enough, but surely the discussion relating to what's going on in India is not relevant to what is going on here in NZ. The two countries are worlds apart in pretty much every way except the relatively high cost of Internet access. I have clearly stated that what's going on in NZ is strictly in the planning stage and that a pilot has been organized.


No, the two are very much related. In both cases, you're claiming to the end users that you, mgcarley, can see ways to deliver better/faster/cheaper services to the masses. Then you don't deliver. But the end users are still thinking "But THIS guy said he could do it cheaper/better/faster, so why can't you?"

It's frustrating to people who have spent a lot of time and effort building what currently is available in New Zealand (warts and all) to see you pull this sort of stunt and the end users, who not being able to comprehend fully what's being discussed (and why would they?), focus on what they can understand which is you claiming faster/better/more uber broadband. Hey you've already done it in India!

I'm trying to show people that you've done exactly this routine before, come in with lots of words then delivered exactly nothing. The two couldn't be more related.




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Master Geek

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  Reply # 357784 28-Jul-2010 15:46
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muppet:

No, the two are very much related. In both cases, you're claiming to the end users that you, mgcarley, can see ways to deliver better/faster/cheaper services to the masses. Then you don't deliver. But the end users are still thinking "But THIS guy said he could do it cheaper/better/faster, so why can't you?"


Yes, because after a whole 1 month of planning such a project can come to fruition. In which universe I don't know, but apparently it can be done. Besides, if it can be done cheaper/faster/better, then it bloody well should be. But I guess you're happy paying outrageous fees for your broadband.

muppet: It's frustrating to people who have spent a lot of time and effort building what currently is available in New Zealand (warts and all) to see you pull this sort of stunt and the end users, who not being able to comprehend fully what's being discussed (and why would they?), focus on what they can understand which is you claiming faster/better/more uber broadband. Hey you've already done it in India!

I'm trying to show people that you've done exactly this routine before, come in with lots of words then delivered exactly nothing. The two couldn't be more related.


You're using the wrong tense again, AND you're claiming I've said anything which actually constitutes an offer of service in NZ while simultaneously claiming stuff about end users. People on this forum are rarely end users and most of the people providing input work for telcos.

Despite having established a company, some contacts and spent some time feeling out the market and doing a bit of research, I've not promised anything for NZ and won't do so unless I am 100% sure and/or have a signed contract in my hand. So far, I'm a few hundred bucks out of pocket (big whoop) unless and until I go ahead and send a purchase order through to my network operator of choice for the aforementioned pilot.

Have I explicitly asked you for an address so that I can come and install some cable? No. Have I specifically offered you service? No. I've merely suggested what could be provided IN THEORY based on numbers provided to me by people I've spoken to. This thread was to put the idea out there that a player want's to bring a full-fledged triple/quad play service BASED on the availability of existing infrastructure which may or may not already be in use.

You're attacking a project which on one hand is not quite at the finishing line - as if you'd expect a car to work without wheels - while on the other hand attacking another project which is still largely on the drawing board and has been proposed - at least for the current time - as an experiment.

Had I gone ahead and advertised on a billboard or on TV about this great new thing and then failed to deliver, that would be a different story - you are confusing an idea with a promise. The fact that I think there is a lot LESS of a barrier to entry in NZ by comparison with India is merely a time management thing - while I wait for the snails paced clerical stuff to be done there, I might just try and get something done here.

Excuse the metaphor, but do you attack a builder who has an unfinished house on one lot (for whatever the reason might be) who then says "I think I'll build another house on another lot"? The first house is there, but it's completely useless to anyone, doesn't serve it's intended purpose at all, but the minute those walls get there, it's going to provide some people with something valuable.

In India, whether you believe it or not, we have everything *in place* but not yet in operation because of one tiny little but entirely vital thing. Had I decided to choose a vendor like UTStarCom for my CPEs, users would have been connected months ago (as the company is Indian), but that companies gear is complete rubbish and I don't want to deal with it. CPEs will not be an issue in this country - NZ and China have pretty good relations, but who knows what issues I will face between now and when the experiment is finished? I don't, and none of you do either.

Only actually building something will show just how accurate the numbers are, and it's with that in mind that I have been spending the last couple of days procuring materials to actually go ahead. I'm paying for the lot (after all, it's my money, not yours) - 2 blocks (about 50 houses) wired with fiber and Gigabit gear - will let you know how it goes. 

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  Reply # 357796 28-Jul-2010 16:15
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mgcarley: Excuse the metaphor, but do you attack a builder who has an unfinished house on one lot (for whatever the reason might be) who then says "I think I'll build another house on another lot"? The first house is there, but it's completely useless to anyone, doesn't serve it's intended purpose at all, but the minute those walls get there, it's going to provide some people with something valuable.


Well, if no one had ever heard of the builder before, and he'd claimed to have built a 200 room hotel but hidden it behind a tent "because the door knobs are missing", plus he wouldn't tell us the address of the hotel because it was confidential, then yea. I'd probably call BS on his ability to build a house.

mgcarley: Only actually building something will show just how accurate the numbers are, and it's with that in mind that I have been spending the last couple of days procuring materials to actually go ahead.I'm paying for the lot (after all, it's my money, not yours)- 2 blocks (about 50 houses) wired with fiber and Gigabit gear -will let you know how it goes.


I look forward to it.




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  Reply # 357827 28-Jul-2010 16:59
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Well I think this thread is just about done, but best of luck for all the commercial negotiations and continuing development of an actual business proposal. You will need it, but Hamilton is probably one of the best cities in NZ to be running a pilot, HFN having already run FTTP a pilot in commercial areas that you are planning to link up with.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 357862 28-Jul-2010 17:45
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mgcarley: But I guess you're happy paying outrageous fees for your broadband.

That's an outrageous statement since your fair usage claims are less than what I get from my current ISP and it only costs me $50 a month.

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  Reply # 357863 28-Jul-2010 17:46
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I have to point out that the original post was about the original poster sounding out interest in a project he is hoping to see come to fruition. After that people said it can't be done, or how do you expect to do it or even doubt that he is even genuine.

He has asked whether you would be interested the answers should be based around that. It is for the OP to make good his intentions not you to say he can't.

Have you gained or lost something out of it??? Simply put the only person losing out here is the OP and his investors and unless you fit into that category you should keep your negativity to yourself.

To use my own analogy at work today we had a proposal to vote on whether we wanted them to go ahead with discussions that relate to a performance payout that we may or may get dependant on team performance.

Currently there is no performance payout. If we vote no nothing gained and nothing lost.

If we voted to have them work out the new bonus system it eventually comes into effect. Something gained and nothing lost.

If your not an investor you have only the chance to gain from this and have lost nothing. If the OP is not able to deliver we still have lost nothing and it certainly isn't the first time someone has said they can provide better and not come through with it.

I am hoping that he is able to go ahead and get this up and running as it can only mean good things for us as that's what true competition does.




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  Reply # 357867 28-Jul-2010 17:57
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hellonearthisman: 
That's an outrageous statement since your fair usage claims are less than what I get from my current ISP and it only costs me $50 a month.


1. I haven't made ANY fair usage claims for what I would do in NZ. I have made an uneducated guess, at best and even that would have been based on my Indian pricing. Big difference.
2. Which ISP, what plan, what speed, what technology?

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  Reply # 357894 28-Jul-2010 18:50
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mgcarley:
hellonearthisman:?
That's an outrageous statement since your fair usage claims are less than what I get from my current ISP and it only costs me $50 a month.


1. I haven't made ANY fair usage claims for what I would do in NZ. I have made an uneducated guess, at best and even that would have been based on my Indian pricing. Big difference.
2. Which ISP, what plan, what speed, what technology?


You said on in the 1st page of this debate, you saud that an"unreasonable level" - say 100GB
To say that I'm being charged an outrageous amount for my broadband is just wrong and I seriously think you would be struggling to match them on value of service.

So, 1. Yes you did but you forgot.
2. My ISP is Slingshot my plan is 'just a brand name, which is no longer available but they have new ones that a almost as good' , my speed is FS/128Kbps and that's using ADSL1 technology (ADSL2+ coming later)

There isn't much point in having a GB connection when it gets choked to 256kbps for getting more than 100GB of data.

I would be surprised if you could off your service at $50 a month for 100+GB of data.
So again I say, your claim that I am paying an outrageous amount for my broadband is wrong. Some people on the FS/FS plans from Slingshot can get 300GB a month for $80. Your claims about the value of broardband from currently operating ISP in NZ is wrong.

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