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188 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 375899 2-Sep-2010 17:45
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I am in the cabling trade on the ground floor so to speak, we having been running at least 2x cat 5/6 to S/O for many years.

Cable cheap, holes in walls expensive.



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 375911 2-Sep-2010 18:22
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Sour grapes ??

Most sparkies are not running 2x Cat5 because they think its stupid........call me stupid but I agree.

comments here like... "A single cat 5 cable cannot deliver data and voice." is bizzare ??

For now a single Cat5 is fine ...but if you want to future proof a Cat5 with fibre cable ( only $1.20 per meter).... sparkies want a sensible solution to give consumers.

Copper is dead the less of it the better, Optical inputs will appear on appliances and this 2x Cat5 thing will look like a waste of time within 24 months.

I think we should run 1x Cat5 and 1 x Duplex Multimode Fibre for the best long term outcome.

Once we no what cable to run we can determine the correct make up of the SDP.









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  Reply # 375937 2-Sep-2010 19:10
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ALARMNZ:comments here like... "A single cat 5 cable cannot deliver data and voice." is bizzare ??



You've obviously got a way of delivering gigabit ethernet and single pair POTS voice over a single cat5e cable. Please share it with the rest of the world.


188 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 375956 2-Sep-2010 20:00
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Not seen alot of fibre reticutaled around a house - some, suppose it will come and the price will go up accordingly, i imagine Mr HO won't be paying 120c per metre for it.



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 375964 2-Sep-2010 20:19
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Who wants POTS anyway ? I mean really ....Skype, Messenger, Google talk etc the baby boomers are tech conscious and POTs is so so last century ( like hand crank in model T)

While Cat5/6 is a legacy Technology and we are stuck with it for now but things like "Light peak" will dominate and Ethernet, HDMI, Firewire  (IEEE 1394) , USB will fade away.

see http://techresearch.intel.com/articles/None/1813.htm

But for now its Cat5/6 ......but lets achknowledge Fibre is the future and not a tempory gimmick so it should last a hundred years. ( or close to)

But then there is WiGig ....and I know Sbiddle hates me saying this... but there heaps of wireless capacity out there in NZ

see http://www.betanews.com/article/WiGig-publishes-7-Gbps-wireless-home-networking-spec/1273504044


188 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 375988 2-Sep-2010 21:35
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Places like this forum will exist because the people here understand, compare and help shape the future development of stuctured wiring, DSL, wireless, power supply utilities that will maintain connections to the much acclaimed bebo, facebook and power the alarm panel etc..

Its the sell to the public thats the hardest part of the whole equation, 99.9% of people that build new houses woudn't know a cat5e from a can of coke.

Until they can't do something they want to do.



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 376096 3-Sep-2010 08:08
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Kelem:
Its the sell to the public thats the hardest part of the whole equation, 99.9% of people that build new houses woudn't know a cat5e from a can of coke.



Its not the Home owner who decides this, just as the plumber decides on what release valve is required or pressure switch the sparkie decides all this for them.

I idea than home owners are generally ignorant is correct, however forums like this do help organise thought.

I am saying that people with older homes wanting to rewire with Cat5 the sparkie  will not run two (2) just as in a new home. As we try to build the correct SDP for older homes then issues like a second Cat5 needs to be re-considered as the TCF home wiring group is workiing away at producing a new standard.

I say 1x Cat5 (for now ) and if you want to future proof 1 x duplex multimode Fibre (for later).

Too many CAt5' in the SDP that are not needed are wasteful.


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  Reply # 376105 3-Sep-2010 08:39
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ALARMNZ: Who wants POTS anyway ? I mean really ....Skype, Messenger, Google talk etc the baby boomers are tech conscious and POTs is so so last century ( like hand crank in model T)





There no substitution for a POTS line   for reliability especially when the power goes off.  Try using Skye etc when you BB  is down or the like.. POTS will be with us for a few years yet..




Regards,

Old3eyes


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Ultimate Geek
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Technical Solutions Aust

  Reply # 376163 3-Sep-2010 10:36
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I feel compelled to wade into this argument as I am the owner of an electrical consultancy and installation company, specialising in everything from Home automation, AV, data networking for corporates etc. to high rise building, and large gated communities (HV, LV, TV, CCTV, Data and telecoms)

Firstly AlarmNZ, I am not wanting to get personal here, but I sincerely hope you are not involved with any sort of installation when it comes to this industry. Your opinions expressed are counter to everything this industry is struggling to achieve.

You are sacrificing future capacity in the name of "green" politicking. Sealed lead acid batteries lasting 3 years? perhaps you should look at what these types of batteries are actually rated at. For example in the fire alarm industry you are required to have a minimum service life of 5 years.... if you look into the specifications of most batteries typically available on the market, they tend to far exceed that.... there are even a few brands out there that have a service life of 12 years +.

Not running a second cat 5 because it's unnecessary, and then suggesting that a home owner should run a multi-mode fibre instead for future capacity if absurd at this point in time. Our specifications typically include 2 x Cat6 runs to all data outlets, and don't even get me started on the cabling we specify (and install) to television / multimedia outlets. This will allow a few decades of capacity at the current rate of progress and by that stage, most New Zealand houses are in need of decent cosmetic maintenance. At this point in time, the cost of installation, jointing and media converting fibre does not warrant an internal installation where you have typical runs of 20-40meters max. 

Most sparkies are only just getting onto the idea of using cat5, period, let alone the correct ways to wire it (I have seen cat 5 used in a daisy chain fashion many a time, or looped RJ45 outlets) - fact of the matter is that most NZ sparkies are utterly useless when it comes to anything other than getting a socket and a light switch to work. If you don't believe that, perhaps you should look into the current standard of the qualification. We have had 4th year apprentices that have been unable to use a multi-meter, let alone sort a decent home network.

The sheer amount of speculation and hyperbole in your posts makes me wonder.... do you really know where the industry is headed, and do you truly know the issues that are presently in existence?

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  Reply # 376168 3-Sep-2010 10:41
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ALARMNZ: Who wants POTS anyway ? I mean really ....Skype, Messenger, Google talk etc the baby boomers are tech conscious and POTs is so so last century ( like hand crank in model T)


Do you realise the "baby boomers" are not really "tech conscious" at all? Baby boomer is the generation born after the WWII - they are now in their 60s and 70s.

You are probably thinking of what's called the "Generation Y" or "Millenial Generation". These are the young people born in the last couple of decades and are much much younger than "baby boomers".





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  Reply # 376214 3-Sep-2010 12:12
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Firstly AlarmNZ, I am not wanting to get personal here, but I sincerely hope you are not involved with any sort of installation when it comes to this industry. Your opinions expressed are counter to everything this industry is struggling to achieve.


I too have to totally agree on this, and all other comments you make Evilg.

AlarmNZ I am afraid your comments are so off mark I struggle to take you seriously, and like Evilg I too make a living from doing both residential and commercial AV and data communications system so feel I do speak with some knowledge of what current and future home owners demand and need.

Cyril



88 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 376335 3-Sep-2010 17:05
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Evilg:

I feel compelled to wade into this argument as I am the owner of an electrical consultancy and installation company, specialising in everything from Home automation, AV, data networking for corporates etc. to high rise building, and large gated communities (HV, LV, TV, CCTV, Data and telecoms)

Firstly AlarmNZ, I am not wanting to get personal here, but I sincerely hope you are not involved with any sort of installation when it comes to this industry. Your opinions expressed are counter to everything this industry is struggling to achieve.
 
You are sacrificing future capacity in the name of "green" politicking. Sealed lead acid batteries lasting 3 years? perhaps you should look at what these types of batteries are actually rated at. For example in the fire alarm industry you are required to have a minimum service life of 5 years.... if you look into the specifications of most batteries typically available on the market, they tend to far exceed that.... there are even a few brands out there that have a service life of 12 years +

Not running a second cat 5 because it's unnecessary, and then suggesting that a home owner should run a multi-mode fibre instead for future capacity if absurd at this point in time. Our specifications typically include 2 x Cat6 runs to all data outlets, and don't even get me started on the cabling we specify (and install) to television / multimedia outlets. This will allow a few decades of capacity at the current rate of progress and by that stage, most New Zealand houses are in need of decent cosmetic maintenance. At this point in time, the cost of installation, jointing and media converting fibre does not warrant an internal installation where you have typical runs of 20-40meters max. 

Most sparkies are only just getting onto the idea of using cat5, period, let alone the correct ways to wire it (I have seen cat 5 used in a daisy chain fashion many a time, or looped RJ45 outlets) - fact of the matter is that most NZ sparkies are utterly useless when it comes to anything other than getting a socket and a light switch to work. If you don't believe that, perhaps you should look into the current standard of the qualification. We have had 4th year apprentices that have been unable to use a multi-meter, let alone sort a decent home network.

The sheer amount of speculation and hyperbole in your posts makes me wonder.... do you really know where the industry is headed, and do you truly know the issues that are presently in existence?



EvilG

 

Good to here from you

 

Ok I respect what you are saying about your skill level, but your technical services are acquired by rich people who can afford all the toys and therefore all the cable they want. I am only concerned about the normal home owners who live in standard normal subdivisions around $300k....not Toffs and their $M dollar mansions ....and I mean that in a kindest possible way.


You are correct quality sealed Lead acid batteries can exceed 5 years or longer however a lot of crap ones are out there. There are some other issues regarding battery conditioning that I would like to talk about later once the CHORUS SDP is on the market. I admit I have planted 7,000 trees, but also drive a V8 and honestly I am too crass to be a Politician so I would not consider myself truly bankable political material but thanks anyway.



I am suggesting that in “normal” homes that running a second Cat5 is not future proofing, because most homes cannot get GiGaBit access and since xDSL is only going to deliver approx 20mbps making 10BASE-T/100BASE-TX speeds OK until fibre arrives and which time the GiGaBit connection will be a bottle neck.

 

You can refer to most NZ sparkies being utterly useless, but I see a industry fast coming up to speed full of Tech savvy young individuals ready to deal with this challenge. Despite what you may think it will the Electrical firms that will handle home network cabling and outlet fit off. Why some of the older firms ( and consultants I might add) are slow to catch onto Fibre in NZ is because the broadband networking  industry has skyrocketed and are just a little behind but are catching up fast.

 

As far as industry direction is concerned perhaps I am out of touch…or perhaps not ........we will see how far your 16 electrical conductors inside your 2x Cat5/6 ( two) cables get you in the long run.

 

A question for you EvilG in your illustrious career have you ever used a multimode fibre longer than 50m on a job ? how did it go….was it good ?

 

  



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Master Geek
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Reply # 376337 3-Sep-2010 17:10
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freitasm:
ALARMNZ: Who wants POTS anyway ? I mean really ....Skype, Messenger, Google talk etc the baby boomers are tech conscious and POTs is so so last century ( like hand crank in model T)


Do you realise the "baby boomers" are not really "tech conscious" at all? Baby boomer is the generation born after the WWII - they are now in their 60s and 70s.

You are probably thinking of what's called the "Generation Y" or "Millenial Generation". These are the young people born in the last couple of decades and are much much younger than "baby boomers".



Freitasm

Perhaps you are right ...the baby boomers in the communications industry are the ones that are going to hold us all back with their copper world view 

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  Reply # 376338 3-Sep-2010 17:11
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I tried some multimode between my house and shed when I was losing ethernet ports with great regularity, one of the media converters stopped working (which one? no idea) so just went back to cat-5e and it has been fine. We did some electrical work on the house since then and there was something up with the neutral which the sparky said could have been causing problems like that. I just got some really long patch cables and pulled them thru the conduit so there was no termination needed.




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188 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 376972 5-Sep-2010 19:48
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Evilg:  We have had 4th year apprentices that have been unable to use a multi-meter, let alone sort a decent home network.


Sad news indeed when you consider the average age of an electrician is mid 40's and over 50% will retire in the next 10 years.

Pleased to comment both my current appys are absolutey awesome
sorry to hijack

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