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88 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 389681 8-Oct-2010 18:56
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As promised















Here is the XDSL home wiring design with VoIP

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog2502872021e6562cb528efc3c0c357dc.jpg


.....and the XDSL home wiring design with POTS

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog5f31a6a4b87a207b209a5b24a4c6763c.jpg


......and just because I care here is FTTx as well

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog80b8570f30869f4b95f148e85fcba6d4.jpg


Notes:

Some will ask what about xDSL router backup power for VoIP ? .... the answer is to fit a Home Power Supply.

Some will ask why have a xDSL filter on the FTTx voice block? ...the answer is you do not need it but if someone wants to switch back to copper (its a free country right) then its already there. Actually I was told it can be removed if you like.

Some will ask when will the voice block become available ?..... the answer is as soon as it arrives from China see your wholesaler.




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  Reply # 389770 8-Oct-2010 23:33
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Thats been resized small as, but I can make out 10-100mps on the computers.

Is that a limitation of the wiring or just the router chosen, because it sure as hell isnt good enough to be pushing out something that only supports obsolete speeds.




Richard rich.ms



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  Reply # 389788 9-Oct-2010 01:36
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richms: Thats been resized small as, but I can make out 10-100mps on the computers.

Is that a limitation of the wiring or just the router chosen, because it sure as hell isnt good enough to be pushing out something that only supports obsolete speeds.



Yes that 100mbs is a limitation of the router chosen in this example. You could use a gigabit Router and gigabit switch however acheiving Gigabit speed over a CAT5/6 which is also carrying voice is a limitation if you choose to use the cable in that way. 

If you know of a good supplier of 8 port giigabit routers and swiches for a purchase price less than $150 new please advise.

Also I do not think many ISP's are quoting download speeds beyond 100Mbps just yet.

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  Reply # 389828 9-Oct-2010 11:00
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Obviously that would depend on the quality of the install and requirements of the home builder, since both Cat5e and Cat6 are quite capable running to a Gigabit switch for the LAN unless problems with cable runs etc. Anything else depends on how much money you can convince the provider to throw at you.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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  Reply # 389859 9-Oct-2010 13:23
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Plenty of switches for about that pricepoint if you want a desktop form one. some even have 9k frame support so you can get the maximum out of it.

Not aware of any cheap routers with gig on them, but most 802.11n ones that are not total junk have gigabit on them, since there is little point giving them an air interface that is able to go almost twice as fast as your wired interfaces. And yes, I have seen about 200 megabit across wifi on n gear when in the same room as the router.

Whats the internet connection got to do with it? I have a crap 2.5 meg connection and regularly saw the 100 meg switch become the bottleneck with playing media or copying stuff between computers.

As for the mention of sharing cables with voice, thats a yes, you are limiting it thru poor cabling choice IMO.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 389948 9-Oct-2010 18:52
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ALARMNZ:  

However acheiving Gigabit speed over a CAT5/6 which is also carrying voice is a limitation if you choose to use the cable in that way. 



I hope you/they are not advocating installers send voice and data over 1 Cat5E/6 cable except in a worse case retro fit where it's really not possible to run separate/additional cables.
 
ALARMNZ: 

If you know of a good supplier of 8 port giigabit routers and swiches for a purchase price less than $150 new please advise.


End user retail pricing for consumer routers that do gigabit and wireless N is under $200 these days,  It should definitely be possible to get a large run of decent spec routers/units direct from the manufacturer in china for <$150.



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  Reply # 389974 9-Oct-2010 20:30
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Maybe hes talking about Gigabit speeds using VoIP without QoS with other LAN traffic, since GigE requires all 4 pairs on the cable. Eventually a single cable to each location is not enough for new homes, and phones should be able to get swapped out for VoIP handsets that need PoE — without any re-cabling.

Retrofitting old houses for new network services is more challenging, and probably can't use ethernet in many houses where you get whatever the landlord gave you.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 390254 10-Oct-2010 20:25
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Here is the XDSL home wiring design with VoIP

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog2502872021e6562cb528efc3c0c357dc.jpg


.....and the XDSL home wiring design with POTS

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog5f31a6a4b87a207b209a5b24a4c6763c.jpg


......and just because I care here is FTTx as well

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog80b8570f30869f4b95f148e85fcba6d4.jpg




In most examples provided I deliberately used a single CAT5e/6 cable. While the TCF ( local telecoms ginger group) here in NZ recommends dual  CAT5e/6 cable to every outlet, I take the view that if you can afford to do that ..… then why not. But for the rest of us poorer people living in basic dwellings a single CAT5e/6 cable is all we really need. ( that’s my opinion anyway take it or leave it)

Issues like POE  in the home are by no means certain  and since most outlets have AC nearby anyway.... cordless phones are more likely to stick with the plug pack instead of going POE. This position is largely backed up by the fact that the majority of popular new VoIP hardware are all running on plug packs. Please do not get me wrong POE is a good idea but as history has shown us before (BETA versus VHS) the good ideas do not always win.

Some organisations ( like the current TCF group) want to argue for splitting voice out of the CAT5e/6 cable and suggest running an extra CAT5e/6 cable as a future proof strategy.  Personally I live for today and those old folks who love their analogue POTS handset  will do fine with a 100mbps data limitation for those Ethernet outlets around the home ( assuming  they use a single CAT5e/6 cable and split the voice pair out).  Since voice  long term is certainly going to be mostly all IP based anyway the position the TCF group is taking in regards to dual CAT5e/6 cable for low budget housing is somewhat tenuous and I would suggest that the TCF stick to minimum standards rather than imposing their socioeconomic values on the entire community  in a blanket style.

Traditional POTS phones will die slightly slower than Fax machines  ( again that’s my opinion anyway take it or leave it)

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  Reply # 390318 11-Oct-2010 06:22
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You really do have a messed up view of the industry as a whole.

PoE is nothing like Beta vas VHS because PoE isn't competing with anything. Certainly in mid range installs, particularly if AP's or VoIP phones are to be installed PoE is now the norm. I'm finding it's also becoming exceptionally handy in installs in older legacy buildings where modern thinking of locating power plugs near wiring didn't happen and have used PoE powered switches has been a great way of removing bottlenecks.

Your views are in many ways far behind the times, particularly that is artificial restrictions like single cat5e runs. Having to buy an additional switch to plug two devices (such as a PC and printer or PC + phone) into a single location is just plain crazy. The cost of running new cable in the first place is far less than trying to do it in the future.


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  Reply # 390606 11-Oct-2010 19:24
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Considering how backwards the alarm industry is in general, its not a suprise to me. sensor technology that hasnt really changed in 20 years connected by a contact closure etc is still the norm.




Richard rich.ms



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 390702 11-Oct-2010 23:24
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sbiddle: You really do have a messed up view of the industry as a whole.



Ok Steve... totally respect your input into GeekZone and the fantastic effort you make on behalf of GZ followers in particular your past support for ALARMNZ solutions which was duly noted and  thanks for that….. making the correct technology choices and decisions at the right time is important and despite  the talking up of PoE ......well for normal homes its a bit too early to say if PoE will catch on domestically… the jury is still out.




sbiddle: PoE is nothing like Beta vas VHS because PoE isn't competing with anything. Certainly in mid range installs, particularly if AP's or VoIP phones are to be installed PoE is now the norm. I'm finding it's also becoming exceptionally handy in installs in older legacy buildings where modern thinking of locating power plugs near wiring didn't happen and have used PoE powered switches has been a great way of removing bottlenecks.



Firstly we are talking about Fibre to the Home ( FTTH) not Fibre to the Business (FTTB) and in the latter scenario your comments are indeed correct but they do not apply very well in the ordinary domestic setting. ( leaving out the up market flash homes) Despite your enthusiasm for PoE ....unfortunately its not going to easily overcome the main competitor which is "for your info" the mighty AC. Will PoE handle Plasma TVs? will PoE recharge my laptop in 30 mins ?  or will PoE juice my gaming console ? answer not anytime soon…..so when you say PoE does not have a competitor …..I’m not so sure you should dismiss AC so quickly.



sbiddle:Your views are in many ways far behind the times, particularly that is artificial restrictions like single cat5e runs. Having to buy an additional switch to plug two devices (such as a PC and printer or PC + phone) into a single location is just plain crazy. The cost of running new cable in the first place is far less than trying to do it in the future.




.....You say a single Cat5e is an artificial restriction, .....plugging two things into a single location is plain crazy and .....running new cable now is less costly then in the future.

Steve my views are neither behind or ahead of the times they are firmly stuck in the present.Wink I do not want to argue with you endlessly but please take a moment and consider that an average bedroom in an average new home needs new cable, ......would it not make more sense to run a single Cat5e next to each AC outlet within that room than two Cat5e to one single outlet. ( printer hear.... PC there... Phone over here etc etc )

The TCF home wiring group (so far) has forgotten about the practicality of use and the displacement of technology within spatial design (impractical nature of excessive cognition in a small room). Unless the TCF group and many associated pundits such as yourself begin to tone it down, you run the risk of being sidelined.

One Cat5e is enough and most electricains know it….its time to face up, dual (two)Cat5e to most outlets is a luxury which is fine if you can afford it.

BTW Steve the CHORUS SDP you wrote about on your blog http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385 is as I understand really just a standard splitter in a box ...right ? did you pop the lid open and take a look ?  I heard that the version in your article (without the power supply ) is basically empty and only contains just a standard splitter. is this true and is the basic CHORUS SDP is nothing more than a splitter in a fancy box ?

This thread here is about getting the SDP for FTTX and XDSL sorted correctly and your candid truthful appraisal about the CHORUS SDP is important since you are the only person I know has touched this device. 

Please comment and tell us all about the contents of the SDP box you saw and wrote about.

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  Reply # 390710 12-Oct-2010 00:12
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Not sure I understand your thinking.

If you have a guy going to the effort of running one cat5e to an outlet why would you not run 2-4 cables to it?

The time and cost of running 2-4 cables to that outlet instead of 1 isn't going to be much extra.  Its like $0.5 per meter for the actual cat5e cable and what maybe and extra 5min work at each end....



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  Reply # 390728 12-Oct-2010 07:45
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Here is the latest blurb from CHORUS about their SDP

http://www.chorus.co.nz/f780,38883/NGHS_20Install_20SDP_1_.pdf

Unless our good GZ contributor Sbiddle can confirm otherwise I say the basic CHORUS SDP is nothing more than a DSL splitter in a fancy box ...thats it.

Looks like a marketing dept "colouring in" job to me.

It reminds me of that favourite saying "when in a hole...stop digging"




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  Reply # 390732 12-Oct-2010 07:52
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ALARMNZ:


sbiddle: PoE is nothing like Beta vas VHS because PoE isn't competing with anything. Certainly in mid range installs, particularly if AP's or VoIP phones are to be installed PoE is now the norm. I'm finding it's also becoming exceptionally handy in installs in older legacy buildings where modern thinking of locating power plugs near wiring didn't happen and have used PoE powered switches has been a great way of removing bottlenecks.


 
Firstly we are talking about Fibre to the Home ( FTTH) not Fibre to the Business (FTTB) and in the latter scenario your comments are indeed correct but they do not apply very well in the ordinary domestic setting. ( leaving out the up market flash homes) Despite your enthusiasm for PoE ....unfortunately its not going to easily overcome the main competitor which is "for your info" the mighty AC. Will PoE handle Plasma TVs? will PoE recharge my laptop in 30 mins ?  or will PoE juice my gaming console ? answer not anytime soon…..so when you say PoE does not have a competitor …..I’m not so sure you should dismiss AC so quickly.


 
What do Plasma TV's have to do with PoE? You've completely and utterly lost me here. I wonder whether you've ever actually deployed any PoE equipment because it sounds like you haven't. I also don't understand why you're trashing the PoE standard and have so much against it, what is actually wrong with it?




Steve my views are neither behind or ahead of the times they are firmly stuck in the present.Wink I do not want to argue with you endlessly but please take a moment and consider that an average bedroom in an average new home needs new cable, ......would it not make more sense to run a single Cat5e next to each AC outlet within that room than two Cat5e to one single outlet. ( printer hear.... PC there... Phone over here etc etc )

The TCF home wiring group (so far) has forgotten about the practicality of use and the displacement of technology within spatial design (impractical nature of excessive cognition in a small room). Unless the TCF group and many associated pundits such as yourself begin to tone it down, you run the risk of being sidelined.

One Cat5e is enough and most electricains know it….its time to face up, dual (two)Cat5e to most outlets is a luxury which is fine if you can afford it.



Once again you're the one who has views that differ to the rest of the industry. Running single outlets defies logic and also limits future technology choices - is that single cat5e socket next to the TV going to be used to plug the HTPC in or to distribute HD video across the house? Take your pick, because a single cable can't do both.

You sound very much like an electrician (if you called them that!) 100 years ago saying that there would be no need for more than a single power plug in a room because this new fandangled electricity will never take off. Or somebody 30 years ago saying that people would never have TV's in their bedrooms.

You're the one stuck in the dark ages and all I can say if I'm glad you're not on the TCF imposing negative, dated views onto others in the industry.



Please comment and tell us all about the contents of the SDP box you saw and wrote about.


There is nothing more to say. The inside workings of the SDP are clearly shown in my blog post.

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  Reply # 390733 12-Oct-2010 07:55
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ALARMNZ:
Here is the latest blurb from CHORUS about their SDP

http://www.chorus.co.nz/f780,38883/NGHS_20Install_20SDP_1_.pdf

Unless our good GZ contributor Sbiddle can confirm otherwise I say the basic CHORUS SDP is nothing more than a DSL splitter in a fancy box ...thats it.

Looks like a marketing dept "colouring in" job to me.

It reminds me of that favourite saying "when in a hole...stop digging"



Mind telling me where anybody has claimed the SDP is anthing but this?

I don't think I've ever come across somebody who's been so negative over something they've never even managed to see in real life.






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