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  Reply # 390734 12-Oct-2010 08:01
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Neville can you please explain what you are trying to achieve here as I really don't get what you want ?

This is a Chorus product that they are offering to their customers, if it does a job and improves current performance then I'm all for it as it will reduce the amount of calls we get that can be traced back to bad wiring... If people don't want a product likle this then they wont buy It pure and simple !!!!

Could there be better combined product options out in the market ... who knows ??... this is just THEIR product offering, if they want to offer a product they can it's up to them it's their business, they dont tell you what to sell do they ?

Feel free to offer whatever you want, pitch it to Chorus, pitch in a public forum, pitch it on your web site it's totally up to you, if people want a product they will buy it pure and simple,

Sorry Neville I just don't get what you want out of this discussion


PS: I will be testing today the new battery backup Variant for Telecom's and our FTTH deployments at Papatoetoe, my main interest is purely the battery though at this point.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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  Reply # 390736 12-Oct-2010 08:04
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Pretty much every house in the country that has an alarm has a line grabber, if the alarm industry had been so motivated they could have insisted on a DSL filter being installed in every alarm panel years ago, but no, they just screw everones DSL service.

Cyril



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  Reply # 390762 12-Oct-2010 09:20
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Maverick

My objective is to "sober up" the Telcos about home wiring and battery standards, because they seem to be a little drunk with power.

Again sorry to be arrogant and unruly, but as a potential new home builder I have no intention of letting CHORUS or anyone get away promoting wasteful solutions and methodologies without at least speaking out.

Yes I advocate for the ALARM industry as I am predicting that it will be this sector ( electrical companies mainly) that will install and maintain home power supplies not CHORUS or any ISP/TELCO.

FYI and for fear of getting people into trouble I did get a chance to closely inspect the CHORUS SDP recently, so as to make a detailed technical comment ( speaking of batteries what's with the silly white plug on the endSmile).
As you say I'm so negative about this CHORUS SDP device I just feel I cannot give it a fair go..so it will be others like Steve that can write about it, and say how wonderful it is...even how it will change our lives forever ..etc ..etc  but for now I'll keep my powder dry then go from there.

BTW Ask yourself... is what you are now taking to Papatoetoe "substantially better" than the FTTx power solution that was delivered 2 years ago?

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  Reply # 390808 12-Oct-2010 10:49
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ALARMNZ: Maverick

My objective is to "sober up" the Telcos about home wiring and battery standards, because they seem to be a little drunk with power.

Again sorry to be arrogant and unruly, but as a potential new home builder I have no intention of letting CHORUS or anyone get away promoting wasteful solutions and methodologies without at least speaking out.

Yes I advocate for the ALARM industry as I am predicting that it will be this sector ( electrical companies mainly) that will install and maintain home power supplies not CHORUS or any ISP/TELCO.

FYI and for fear of getting people into trouble I did get a chance to closely inspect the CHORUS SDP recently, so as to make a detailed technical comment ( speaking of batteries what's with the silly white plug on the endSmile).
As you say I'm so negative about this CHORUS SDP device I just feel I cannot give it a fair go..so it will be others like Steve that can write about it, and say how wonderful it is...even how it will change our lives forever ..etc ..etc? but for now I'll keep my powder dry then go from there.

BTW Ask yourself... is what you are now taking to Papatoetoe "substantially better" than the FTTx power solution that was delivered 2 years ago?


As a potential new home builder if the sparky put one cat 5 outlet in my rooms I would not be a happy camper at all, but then thats the beauty of "GUIDELINES" you don't have to follow them, you do what you think is right and see what the customers want,

"Yes I advocate for the ALARM industry as I am predicting that it will be this sector ( electrical companies mainly) that will install and maintain home power supplies not CHORUS or any ISP/TELCO"

If you are advocatng for the Alarm and Electrical industry why is that not showing up at the working
parties response from those industries , they are all invited to particapte with the guidelines, are they not on the same page as your opinions or do you have a different view point to your industry as whole, you say that the Telcos are drunk with power yet we have invited all industries to be involved with drafting these guidelines both Electricial and Security as well as numerous others, This was done so all industries could particiapte and have valuable input from all releveant sectors, so these opinions do not seem to reflect your industry viewpoint you are crusading for, but appear to be more your own !

Right now for our requirements of a single unit that powers both sets of teclo equipment, ONT and gateway... yes it is a better solution !, it can do multipe voltages without the need of pre-soldered stepdown power transistor left hanging in the cabinet, and the big factor is that Alcatel Lucent (Alcatel not Chorus), have signed off for the warranty on the ONT's which they didn't with the previous options for what ever reason, also the price point I believe you had given them was prohibitive..... so yes this is a better solution for my customer deployments because I KNOW HAVE A SOLUTION.




Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well Wink

             

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  Reply # 391121 12-Oct-2010 23:04
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Maverick


As I have stated before the TCF guideline is OTT and is not a minimum standard at all… its pitched at rich people and that is a pure simple fact.  It would be good if the guide covered everyone. I advocate for the local manufacturers and electrical trade, I do not speak for them and yes I am indeed  a one man show and proud not to be beholding to anyone.

FYI there are three (3) alternatives to the CHORUS SDP in the market and yes two are a couple of $hundred more expensive but they have other cool features ( one is a home automation device) the other is a 5-10A unit able to charge up a car battery and keep your ONT going for a week. I must say when I asked the third company to provide CHORUS a price I was gobsmacked they quoted around a $12x dollars… so I do not think there is a  price issue here. Perhaps CHORUS thought they needed to clone it and escape perceived royalties who knows. I might add each of these companies have been building power supplies for 20 years, with most of their devices put thru testing Labs around the world.

DISCLAIMER : ALARMNZ has no financial ownership in or does it gain royalties from any power supply solution mentioned.

Now the hand soldered step down device issue which you have to referred to several times …hmmm this  was in fact provided by a staff member who was advocating a certain position about the dangers of multiple voltages from a single source. He stated that central DC supply should be based single voltage either  12, 24 or 48vdc and that if other devices required  different  voltages then use  step down (or Up) lead.  As you know we currently advocate 12volts and I have been buoyed by the fact that most switches and routers are either set up for 12volts or their supply inputs are able handle natively the extra voltage (After inspection most all 9v inputs handle 12v Ok).  We have also sourced cheap step  down leads ex China as apparently 12v to 5v is very common due the large automotive USB requirements.

Is having multiple voltages an advantage  ?  not really when you have the correct lead.  Phil you know I have the greatest respect for your knowledge base but this CHORUS thing is certainly  NOT THE SOLUTION it’s just another problem that will fade away as fast as you can say “Cheap splitter in a fancy box” Once the CHORUS SDP (with power) spec sheet comes out the technical  facts will speak for themselves.

 

I really can’t wait …and I hope you keep an open mind going forward…I am.



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  Reply # 392997 18-Oct-2010 02:35
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Lets recap  

In your article  http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385    posted 2-Sep-2010 20:50  you really” talk up” the CHORUS SDP as if it was something very different than a simple splitter in a box, in fact you suggest on one hand that it’s a logical replacement for a “master filter” installation.....then a few lines later you say….its not a replacement for proper structured cabling ??......please clarify your statements

sbiddle: 

The SDP becomes a logical replacement for a master filter installation – rather than just install a basic filter the SDP fills a void that exists where people don’t want to spend significant amounts of money to replace wiring in their house, but want a cost effective way to be able to take advantage of faster broadband speeds and also future proof themselves for the arrival of fibre and VoIP services.

It is not a replacement for a proper structured cabling solution such as those recommended by the TCF, and if you are building a new home or upgrading your home then a structured cabling system should be seen as a key requirement.



ALARMNZ states  "the CHORUS SDP  is a dinosaur"

sbiddle:
The Chorus box is not a dinosaur, and quite frankly you're making IMHO your suggestions that is it really show you lack of understanding of the device.


ALARMNZ states its only a splitter in a fancy box

sbiddle:

Mind telling me where anybody has claimed the SDP is anthing but this?



Well SBiddle…. if the SDP is only a splitter in a box ( I assume you agree with that observation now) so when FTTH comes along it’s a Dinosaur because you do not need a splitter......Bing !!

On the contrary Mr Sbiddle …. you see I do understand this device a little more than you think and furthermore I fully comprehend what it means to have a Telco and/or a ISP cross the demarcation line and start to tell the public how to power their homes. Perhaps tell us who is going care about a landline that only works for 4 hours .....when a mobile phone solution will work for days ?

Take my advice the CHORUS SDP is a “Lemon in waiting” and if it takes 1000’s of them to be thrust into the NZ market and later on end up on trademe as recycled goods, well so be it. As soon as the government or the CFH finds out about this little power unit, I predict LFC’s will be forbidden to deploy it, mainly for environmental reasons rather than the impractical nature of its design. This is a political time bomb and you gas guzzling Geeks ( GGG) seem too busy to see it just now.

If you want a real SDP solution then CHORUS is not the place to look, call your local home data cabling company.

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  Reply # 393011 18-Oct-2010 07:57
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ALARMNZ: Lets recap  

In your article  http://www.geekzone.co.nz/sbiddle/7385    posted 2-Sep-2010 20:50  you really” talk up” the CHORUS SDP as if it was something very different than a simple splitter in a box, in fact you suggest on one hand that it’s a logical replacement for a “master filter” installation.....then a few lines later you say….its not a replacement for proper structured cabling ??......please clarify your statements



Clarify these comments with what? They seem very straight forward to me.

If you have a new house you should have a TCF compliant structured cabling solution in place.

If you have an older house that doesn't have a structured cabling system then a SPD is a logical step up from just installing a master splitter. It will give you an improvement in DSL speeds (which is exactly what a master filter will do) AND it will futureproof your house for a move to CPE based VoIP.

Your problem is you're still so busy trashing the SPD that you don't want to take the time or effort to actually understand it. Your solution doesn't necessarily deliver the ability to do anything the SDP can't already do.

You'd be far better of spending your time educating the alarm industry how to avoid screwing up DSL for the vast majority of homes, as has been the case for the vast majoryity of alarms installed in the past 10 years since the mass rollout of DSL in NZ.

At the end of the day the vast majority of problems related to DSL are caused by residential wiring. Anything that helps improve the end user experience is a good thing, and the SDP is going to do this for a reasonable price. Your constant attacks on such a device don'y do your credibility any good at all.



ant a real SDP solution then CHORUS is not the place to look, call your local home data cabling company.


And who's going to pay $1000 + for a professional cabling job in the house? The vast majority of home owners aren't interested. A few weeks ago you were telling us all that copper was dead, then that fibre was the future, then that we had no need for cable as wireless was going solve everything.


Well SBiddle…. if the SDP is only a splitter in a box ( I assume you agree with that observation now) so when FTTH comes along it’s a Dinosaur because you do not need a splitter......Bing !!


Huh? Splitters/filters are a basic requirement in a DSL based environment.

Fibre is at least 6 years away for residential users and even then there copper still has a future. Are you suggesting that people suffer with terrible broadband for 6 years (when the fix is a few hours work) just because you think the SDP is a waste of time?

The SDP has a vital place in a FTTH environment and futureproofs the user as my blog post explains. CPE based VoIP in a NGN environment needs copper wiring for analogue phones. Upgrading a house with a SPD to FTTH is a dead simple process.








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  Reply # 393013 18-Oct-2010 07:59
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ALARMNZ: Take my advice the CHORUS SDP is a “Lemon in waiting” and if it takes 1000’s of them to be thrust into the NZ market and later on end up on trademe as recycled goods, well so be it. As soon as the government or the CFH finds out about this little power unit, I predict LFC’s will be forbidden to deploy it, mainly for environmental reasons rather than the impractical nature of its design. This is a political time bomb and you gas guzzling Geeks ( GGG) seem too busy to see it just now.



Bonus brownie points for whoever points out the veiled porn reference in his post...







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  Reply # 393352 18-Oct-2010 21:45
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sbiddle: Huh? Splitters/filters are a basic requirement in a DSL based environment.

Fibre is at least 6 years away for residential users and even then there copper still has a future. Are you suggesting that people suffer with terrible broadband for 6 years (when the fix is a few hours work) just because you think the SDP is a waste of time?

The SDP has a vital place in a FTTH environment and futureproofs the user as my blog post explains. CPE based VoIP in a NGN environment needs copper wiring for analogue phones. Upgrading a house with a SPD to FTTH is a dead simple process.



Yes indeed ...I seem to have a dirty spell checker !!


OK...but remember we have established this SDP is a (Splitter in a Box) but some important answers still allude us..

1. Is a SDP (splitter in a box) actually required for FTTH or is it simply redundant and in fact not needed.

2. Will an Analogue Alarm communicate reliably via a SDP using a VoIP port or will wiring via this device be redundant also 

 
If you decide to take up the backup power supply battery version of the SDP


3. How long does the SDP battery keep the phones/communications running?

4. Who maintains the SDP Battery is it the ISP or the Telco how often do they visit to test?

 
Seriously don’t you see that a ISP/TELCO is not the best source for home power supplies, its common knowledge the CHORUS cannot even monitor their roadside cabinet batteries as of 2010 and you Sbiddle suggest this same outfit be responsible for every customers individual home battery....PLEASE !!

I say the consumer should provide power appliances and Telcos just stick to what they do best.

Consumers also should be encouraged to apply a structured cabling solution and install proper Home wiring closets, starting small but at least doing it properly. The CHORUS SDP will in fact contribute to home wiring confusion, as apposed to actually cleaning it up.

I really think CHORUS wants to the right thing but it has to show real leadership and roadmap consumers to a proper Home Power Supply solution and not take this short sighted position of advocating two home batteries. ( ALARM & SDP)

Yes its the market that will ultimatley decide.... but its obvious to most of us that a single home power supply is the most ecologically sustainable path....But it seems some Gas Guzzling Geeks do not agree or really care about green efficiency and instead only consider what is easiest for them RIGHT NOW.

Place your bets...


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  Reply # 393358 18-Oct-2010 22:01
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ALARMNZ:I really think CHORUS wants to the right thing but it has to show real leadership and roadmap consumers to a proper Home Power Supply solution and not take this short sighted position of advocating two home batteries. ( ALARM & SDP)


Last time somebody gave me some data 80% of NZ homes don't have an alarm. That's 80% of the market that won't have two batteries and won't be interested in your solution that is tied to their alarm panel.

What are you going to offer those people? Right now you have nothing to offer them.




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  Reply # 393834 20-Oct-2010 01:12
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sbiddle:
Last time somebody gave me some data 80% of NZ homes don't have an alarm. That's 80% of the market that won't have two batteries and won't be interested in your solution that is tied to their alarm panel.

What are you going to offer those people? Right now you have nothing to offer them.



Statistics are easy to manipulate as you perfectly demonstrate,  there are really only two scenarios involved,

         - Naked DSL

         - Fibre to the home

Combined, both of  these groups are less than 1% of the current household population and interestingly a significant  higher % of them do have Alarm systems. As an example with FTTH you will find all new dwellings are required to have battery backed up smoke detectors due to local council bylaws and as a result the majority of all new FFTH subdivisions have some form of Alarm solution in place. Statistics also show a tech savvy Naked DSL consumer are again more likely to be an Alarm owner as well.

While over time more and more consumers will take up either of these two broadband options, POTS however will still be around for 5-10 years so the absolute requirement for a home battery solution of whatever flavour is limited in the short to medium term.

An ideal  Home Battery solution should be broadband network independent, therefore able to do GSM, xDSL, WiMAX and/or FTTx. etc.  CHORUS have selected a power supply battery solution that has no built-in Alarm option and is encouraging ISP’s to promote the device perhaps as a customer  retention strategy and/or as a fix for when a wide area network power outage that causes 10,000-20,000 AC powered modems to attempt  re-authentication all at once.  Irrespective of the reasons for Telcos pushing Home batteries ( including the TSO 111 access requirement) consumers are more likely to rely on their mobile phone during a power outage ( acts as a torch as well) than soley rely on a fixed voice line.

Based on Sbiddles observations about the percentage of Alarm system owners we can safely assume a similar % of households are going to be concerned about power outages in the home and that group of consumers will constitute the total Home Power Supply Unit market and it is likley a significant number of those same consumers have a requirement for an alarm system.

In summary in the future most home owners who require a battery backed solution in the home do so because of their Security or Medical Alarm devices, as mobiles continue to displace landlines as the preferred voice network access methodolgy.

Did you get those numbers ?

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  Reply # 393912 20-Oct-2010 11:11
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Really AlarmNZ, since when was an SDP with built-in ADSL filter going to be useful for FTTH (even if Chorus thought so)? Its just a tidy little box with some phone wiring, a filter and some RJ45 jacks designed to allow userfriendly connection of VoIP to existing phone wiring. Whether people think telecom should give up on it doesn't matter because government says they have to continue with the voip programme.

Perhaps there will be a review of telecom's separation undertakings when CFH has finalised all LFCs and Chorus has found a role to play somewhere.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^



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  Reply # 394961 23-Oct-2010 09:04
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The Telco “Ginger Group” the NZ Telecommunications forum  (TCF) is promoting extra CAT5e/6 in its minimum home wiring guide http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/c23a4073-6db3-4970-8dc7-3e8e238f517a.cmr 

 

This is what the TCF says is currently suggesting is a minimum 

TCF Minimum Cabling




And.... ALARMNZ says a single CAT5e/6 is all you need ( as a minimum)

ALARMNZ Minimum Cabling


 If you agree or disagree with the TCF or ALARMNZ ...please send your comments to  info@tcf.org.nz   Attention: C. Dobson/ Premises wiring committee  

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  Reply # 394968 23-Oct-2010 09:42
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The TCF is a guide not a mandatory lock you up if you dont do it document. That said there minimum layout is petty much what I would recommend based on years of installing this type of setup. Infact in the study I would normally have a further pair, and unless the owners have no idea where to put the TV/AV gear in the lounge then I would normally leave one plate of two runs out.

Cyril

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  Reply # 394969 23-Oct-2010 09:46
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so this is your solution to support a VoIP device and computer from a single outlet? And what's the point of Cat6 for split service if can't ever get faster than 100BaseTX? I have done split service wiring before and its not just a pain to change service types, but also confusing for both users and techs have to do fudges on patch panels. It also leads to assumptions that small wiring cabinets are sufficient for anyone who wants to add more cables later and locks in analogue services. Besides, Ethernet is not really compatible with a ringing voltage on shared cables.




Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going  ^_^

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